Hamas has spent years stockpiling desperately needed fuel, food and medicine, as well as ammo and weapons, in the miles of tunnels it has carved out under Gaza.
This reads like straight propaganda, its absolutely true Hamas as stockpiles.
Know who else has stock piles of food and water? Isreal, and the UNRWA… hell the UN stockpile is sitting in trucks ready to get to the civilians.
What is the military utility of cutting food and water, then saying … ohh look at the besieged city, look at how evil the people in the city are not sharing food and water amongst themselves. Know who else isn’t sharing Food and Water inside of Israel ? The IDF!
I’m sure if Mexico declared war on us, conducted an invasion into Texas and killed over a thousand American civilians, we WOULD blockade and bomb them.
Egypt has treaties in place, and is following those treaties.
Egypt doesn’t support Hamas, at all. Doesn’t want religious political parties in Egypt.
Israel doesn’t want aid coming into gaza. But appears happy for Gazans to leave Gaza empty.
Egypt doesn’t want to absorb all the Gazan people into Egypt. But is happy to let aid cross into Gaza.
If the border was truly independent we would see all the aid trucks crossing, but Israel does control it via remote monitoring, bombing, and treaties. Israel has the superior military, so Egypt doesn’t want to defy treaties.
Egypt doesn’t support Hamas, at all. Doesn’t want religious political parties in Egypt.
Even more strongly, the Muslim Brotherhood is like enemy of the state #1 in Egypt, and Hamas is a Muslim Brotherhood offshoot.
Sisi isn’t as hell-bent secular as Nasser, licensing and constructing plenty of churches and mosques and preaching religious tolerance, Al Nour isn’t outlawed (probably because irrelevant, anyway), but they’re cracking down hard on the Muslim Brotherhood.
Doesn’t care lol. They only opened the border for aid because the USA gave them a guarantee that Israel will allow it and they wouldn’t have to actually use their own military to defend their own border from the IDF.
The IDF may like to think that but the truth is Israel has huge control over water, fuel, and electricity entering. This is why they now managed to turn it off… If Israel didn’t have direct control on the food and water these people need, we wouldn’t have this goddamn problem.
Also now that Israel has entered, what do you want Hamas to do? I don’t support them, but from a practical perspective, should Hamas give away the little fuel it has thtt may enable it to fight the IDF as they invade the strip? Seems to me like they are now the only people protecting civilians there (not super successfully), but still…
And from the Egyptian side news is saying that Israel is the #1 cause of delay on the checkpoint on purpose. Israel has full control over Gaza whether or not they like to admit it.
Will these terrible conditions drive the Palestinians to force their government to release the hostages? I think that is the question that so many people are wondering. I don’t know enough about the crisis to speculate on an answer so I pose the question, what does anyone think it will take for them to release the hostages?
killing uninvolved civilians wont force anyone to release hostages, it is Hamas plan to get more civilians killed which bolsters their mission, recruitment, and global recognition.
Separating the UNRWA from Hamas is pedantic and meaningless at this point. They have been totally co-opted by Hamas.
What is the military utility of cutting food and water
They cut off their own aid. No country provides aid to the state they are actively at war with. Dozens of aid trucks are indeed entering Gaza from other countries.
But sure, lets go with it, Then Hamas has food, water, medicine ready for the civilians in Gaza, waiting in trucks sitting in Egypt waiting to cross. Which is what Israel wants them to do, right? Supply their own citizens…
The person I was responding to said the UNRWA was controlled by Hamas, which would make the UNRWA supply convoys stuck in Egypt part of Hamas as well, meaning that Hamas is trying to supply the civilians…
Its ludicrous, so I was demonstrating to the grandparent poster why their position was incorrect by taking it at face value and going to its logical conclusion
Hamas is not the Arab League. The Arab League does have outsized influence in the UN. The Arab League doesn’t so much care about Hamas (or Palestinians) as they do shitting on Israel.
Then Hamas has food, water, medicine ready for the civilians in Gaza
Israel arranged that. Those countries didn’t want to provide aid because they don’t actually like Hamas, because Hamas-alllied terrorists struck in their countries (and others). This is why they don’t accept Palestinian refugees.
Hamas does appropriate those goods whenever it can, though.
When you blockade supplies and infrastructure from an entire region of people, most of whom have done nothing wrong, then yes, food shortages are your fault.
Assuming that it’s an honest question and not just bait - at this point I would say indoctrination.
Hamas is in power in Gaza for more than 20 years.
That means that every person in Gaza under the age of 25 went to schools run by Hamas, only read books that were written or approved by Hamas, only saw television shows and movies that were made or approved by Hamas etc.
Since more than 50% of the people in Gaza are under 25, and from those that are over 25 about 50% voted for Hamas, I reckon that the current situation is that most people there only know Hamas and its ideology.
It was bait. The best organized groups in oppressed areas are extremists. We saw that when Hosni Mubarak got tossed in Egypt. The Muslim Brotherhood was instantly elected, because they were the most organized. Same goes for Hamas. Who was a serious oppoment to the only group capable of getting anthing actually done in Gaza? Israeli intelligence must have known they were going to get elected.
Also Hamas won the elections by a small margin, just a few percentages more than the PLO at the time. It’s not like everyone in Gaza rallied behind them (at least then).
The reason that there were no elections after that is that once they won, they Putin’ed the opposition and threw all the PLO party members from the building rooftop.
The food, water, energy, and medical embargo of the Gazan people are all publicly acknowledged by the Israel Government. So yes… those things are their fault. They proudly claim responsibility.
While it is true Hamas is the governing body of Gaza, its irrelevant. Israel controls all inputs and outputs of Gaza, nothing gets in or out without IDF permission.
Gaza can’t accept humanitarian aid from the UN, the IDF is preventing it.
Gaza can’t trade with other countries for food, the IDF is preventing it.
Gaza can’t released civilians to leave the war zone…
If your running a embargoed prison camp, and you don’t let anyone leave, and you don’t let any food or water in… that makes you responsible. If you release press statements proudly stating your cutting off all food water energy and medicine from the prison camp, it simply removes all doubt.
Not entirely accurate - the IDF has already allowed more than 70 trucks of humanitarian aid to go through, but this article is saying something else - it says that there is enough food, water, medical supply and resources inside the prison camp.
I’m not sure where the 500 trucks number comes from, but so far there are no reports about people in Gaza dying from dehydration or starvation.
I’m not disagreeing that it’s tragic and that there are many innocent people, from both sides, that are getting caught in the crossfire.
I do think that it’s important to reflect the reality, that the situation there is more complex than “Israel bad Palestinian good”
Innocent people be them Palestinian, Israel, Jordanian, etc don’t deserve to be bombed, starved, denied water, and medical care to make a point about which belligerent is worse.
You’re going to have people that will never see any merit to the other sides position no matter what. You want to know the flat objective truth? Both parties here fucking suck. Both parties are committing war crimes and atrocities. Every retaliation by either side is vehemently defended as justified because of a prior retaliation which was in turn defended because of the retaliation before it. Over and over again.
Global politics being what it is only ensures that no matter what we are going to ride this roller coaster into oblivion and a lot of people are going to have to die for no justifiable reason. Each side is pushing hard to justify their actions and to be presented as the victim. Both sides have decades of experience working the PR front. In 15 years we will be discussing the latest violence in the region.
Pessimistic perhaps, but I’d just say it’s realistic.
It’s… complicated. There is a back and forth through out history.
I’d say the British are the most responsible for the current situation, but it really doesn’t matter. People need to just be able to live, and nobody should have the right to claim land for a religion to the exclusion of anyone else.
This land is for religion X and nobody else… these people are wrong, and only create violence. (yes, that includes most of our current participants in today’s war).
The thing is the morality of the issue is not that complicated.
It’s as complicated as the genocide of native americans and their expulsion into “reservations” where they still lack the same access to infrastructure, healthcare, education as the rest of the country today.
As complicated as apartheid south africa or the irish republicans.
The history is complicated in the sense that it is war with many atrocities and injustices. But the root of the issue, the cause for all these atrocities that the colonialists suffer in retaliation is colonialism.
That really depends on how far back in history you want to go. We can even start with Muhammad and the Jewish tribes massacres (Banu Qurayza for example).
But honestly, I don’t think that that’s a productive approach.
This is a live, dynamic and constantly changing conflict. The things that defined it 100 or even 50 years ago are no longer relevant.
The israeli people living there today have no ancestry back to mohammedan times. They’re 99% converts. But really, you wanted to go back to the start. As if you are going to find some historical excuse that could justify the use of white phosphorus, bombing of hospitals, the bombing of roads that the population were told to take to move south by the very same army doing the bombardment. Some point in time where you can point to and claim “See, this is why the israeli’s are justified in starving and bombing and terrorizing these people in an open-air prison”.
This reads like straight propaganda, its absolutely true Hamas as stockpiles.
Know who else has stock piles of food and water? Isreal, and the UNRWA… hell the UN stockpile is sitting in trucks ready to get to the civilians.
What is the military utility of cutting food and water, then saying … ohh look at the besieged city, look at how evil the people in the city are not sharing food and water amongst themselves. Know who else isn’t sharing Food and Water inside of Israel ? The IDF!
Removed by mod
No, it’d be like if we blockaded and bombed Mexico, then complained that their military isn’t giving out food to the general population.
I mean the group that supposedly is fighting for these people isn’t sharing their supplies to help the people that they supposedly care about?
Just like how they coincidentally put their HQ under a hospital? And use human shields?
Hamas cares about Palestinians as much as Israel does. None.
It’s wild how many people are trying to make Hamas out to be the good guys. These people probably felt bad for ISIS.
Yes that would be pretty shitty of the Mexican government to do, I agree.
I’m sure if Mexico declared war on us, conducted an invasion into Texas and killed over a thousand American civilians, we WOULD blockade and bomb them.
Wait it’s like you almost read history but then didn’t
Yes, we expect no better of America after Fellujah
The IDF is 100% in control of Gaza, everything that goes in or our is under IDF control. That is why people have called Gaza an open air Prison.
So how does that work when Egypt shares a border with Gaza?
https://hackertalks.com/comment/1544238
So Egypt willingly supports Israel but only Israel gets crtitcized for it?
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67133675
Egypt has treaties in place, and is following those treaties.
Egypt doesn’t support Hamas, at all. Doesn’t want religious political parties in Egypt.
Israel doesn’t want aid coming into gaza. But appears happy for Gazans to leave Gaza empty.
Egypt doesn’t want to absorb all the Gazan people into Egypt. But is happy to let aid cross into Gaza.
If the border was truly independent we would see all the aid trucks crossing, but Israel does control it via remote monitoring, bombing, and treaties. Israel has the superior military, so Egypt doesn’t want to defy treaties.
Even more strongly, the Muslim Brotherhood is like enemy of the state #1 in Egypt, and Hamas is a Muslim Brotherhood offshoot.
Sisi isn’t as hell-bent secular as Nasser, licensing and constructing plenty of churches and mosques and preaching religious tolerance, Al Nour isn’t outlawed (probably because irrelevant, anyway), but they’re cracking down hard on the Muslim Brotherhood.
Doesn’t care lol. They only opened the border for aid because the USA gave them a guarantee that Israel will allow it and they wouldn’t have to actually use their own military to defend their own border from the IDF.
Practically surrounded the castle outside the moat and put the trebuchets to work though.
The IDF may like to think that but the truth is Israel has huge control over water, fuel, and electricity entering. This is why they now managed to turn it off… If Israel didn’t have direct control on the food and water these people need, we wouldn’t have this goddamn problem.
Also now that Israel has entered, what do you want Hamas to do? I don’t support them, but from a practical perspective, should Hamas give away the little fuel it has thtt may enable it to fight the IDF as they invade the strip? Seems to me like they are now the only people protecting civilians there (not super successfully), but still…
And from the Egyptian side news is saying that Israel is the #1 cause of delay on the checkpoint on purpose. Israel has full control over Gaza whether or not they like to admit it.
Will these terrible conditions drive the Palestinians to force their government to release the hostages? I think that is the question that so many people are wondering. I don’t know enough about the crisis to speculate on an answer so I pose the question, what does anyone think it will take for them to release the hostages?
killing uninvolved civilians wont force anyone to release hostages, it is Hamas plan to get more civilians killed which bolsters their mission, recruitment, and global recognition.
Separating the UNRWA from Hamas is pedantic and meaningless at this point. They have been totally co-opted by Hamas.
They cut off their own aid. No country provides aid to the state they are actively at war with. Dozens of aid trucks are indeed entering Gaza from other countries.
Hamas controls the UN? That is a strong position
But sure, lets go with it, Then Hamas has food, water, medicine ready for the civilians in Gaza, waiting in trucks sitting in Egypt waiting to cross. Which is what Israel wants them to do, right? Supply their own citizens…
The food, water and resources are in the Hamas tunnels in Gaza, not in Egypt.
The person I was responding to said the UNRWA was controlled by Hamas, which would make the UNRWA supply convoys stuck in Egypt part of Hamas as well, meaning that Hamas is trying to supply the civilians…
Its ludicrous, so I was demonstrating to the grandparent poster why their position was incorrect by taking it at face value and going to its logical conclusion
They can be in both places and still be a true statement…
Hamas is not the Arab League. The Arab League does have outsized influence in the UN. The Arab League doesn’t so much care about Hamas (or Palestinians) as they do shitting on Israel.
Israel arranged that. Those countries didn’t want to provide aid because they don’t actually like Hamas, because Hamas-alllied terrorists struck in their countries (and others). This is why they don’t accept Palestinian refugees.
Hamas does appropriate those goods whenever it can, though.
deleted by creator
So, regardless of what happens and what everyone is doing or not doing, it’s always Israel’s fault?
When you blockade supplies and infrastructure from an entire region of people, most of whom have done nothing wrong, then yes, food shortages are your fault.
You seem to forget that Hamas is the acting government of Gaza.
So the people of Gaza should just elect a new government. Why do you suppose they don’t?
Assuming that it’s an honest question and not just bait - at this point I would say indoctrination.
Hamas is in power in Gaza for more than 20 years.
That means that every person in Gaza under the age of 25 went to schools run by Hamas, only read books that were written or approved by Hamas, only saw television shows and movies that were made or approved by Hamas etc.
Since more than 50% of the people in Gaza are under 25, and from those that are over 25 about 50% voted for Hamas, I reckon that the current situation is that most people there only know Hamas and its ideology.
It was bait. The best organized groups in oppressed areas are extremists. We saw that when Hosni Mubarak got tossed in Egypt. The Muslim Brotherhood was instantly elected, because they were the most organized. Same goes for Hamas. Who was a serious oppoment to the only group capable of getting anthing actually done in Gaza? Israeli intelligence must have known they were going to get elected.
How many elections have happened since?
Are you saying that the Egyptians are oppressed?
Also Hamas won the elections by a small margin, just a few percentages more than the PLO at the time. It’s not like everyone in Gaza rallied behind them (at least then).
The reason that there were no elections after that is that once they won, they Putin’ed the opposition and threw all the PLO party members from the building rooftop.
Getting kind of lazy with your talking points, you are just copying and pasting the same response to different people.
Well, you essentially said the same thing…
The food, water, energy, and medical embargo of the Gazan people are all publicly acknowledged by the Israel Government. So yes… those things are their fault. They proudly claim responsibility.
You seem to forget that Hamas is the acting government of Gaza.
While it is true Hamas is the governing body of Gaza, its irrelevant. Israel controls all inputs and outputs of Gaza, nothing gets in or out without IDF permission.
Gaza can’t accept humanitarian aid from the UN, the IDF is preventing it.
Gaza can’t trade with other countries for food, the IDF is preventing it.
Gaza can’t released civilians to leave the war zone…
If your running a embargoed prison camp, and you don’t let anyone leave, and you don’t let any food or water in… that makes you responsible. If you release press statements proudly stating your cutting off all food water energy and medicine from the prison camp, it simply removes all doubt.
Not entirely accurate - the IDF has already allowed more than 70 trucks of humanitarian aid to go through, but this article is saying something else - it says that there is enough food, water, medical supply and resources inside the prison camp.
It’s just that its leaders refuse to share it.
The daily needs of the Gazan people are 500 trucks, and that was before the war started, if anything those needs are larger now.
So yes, 70 trucks have been allowed through in 3 weeks? of the war.
70/10,500 < 1% of need
It’s insufficient, and the the starving, people are still starving.
I’m not sure where the 500 trucks number comes from, but so far there are no reports about people in Gaza dying from dehydration or starvation.
I’m not disagreeing that it’s tragic and that there are many innocent people, from both sides, that are getting caught in the crossfire. I do think that it’s important to reflect the reality, that the situation there is more complex than “Israel bad Palestinian good”
Innocent people be them Palestinian, Israel, Jordanian, etc don’t deserve to be bombed, starved, denied water, and medical care to make a point about which belligerent is worse.
You’re going to have people that will never see any merit to the other sides position no matter what. You want to know the flat objective truth? Both parties here fucking suck. Both parties are committing war crimes and atrocities. Every retaliation by either side is vehemently defended as justified because of a prior retaliation which was in turn defended because of the retaliation before it. Over and over again.
Global politics being what it is only ensures that no matter what we are going to ride this roller coaster into oblivion and a lot of people are going to have to die for no justifiable reason. Each side is pushing hard to justify their actions and to be presented as the victim. Both sides have decades of experience working the PR front. In 15 years we will be discussing the latest violence in the region.
Pessimistic perhaps, but I’d just say it’s realistic.
Only when it is. Like now.
You seem to forget how this war started.
Every palestinian remembers the Nakba.
Let me guess, you’re a “from the river to the sea” supporter
Am I wrong? Is the Nakba not how it started?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4upvoxP9-kg
It’s… complicated. There is a back and forth through out history.
I’d say the British are the most responsible for the current situation, but it really doesn’t matter. People need to just be able to live, and nobody should have the right to claim land for a religion to the exclusion of anyone else.
This land is for religion X and nobody else… these people are wrong, and only create violence. (yes, that includes most of our current participants in today’s war).
Here is an alternative Piped link(s):
https://www.piped.video/watch?v=4upvoxP9-kg
Piped is a privacy-respecting open-source alternative frontend to YouTube.
I’m open-source; check me out at GitHub.
The thing is the morality of the issue is not that complicated.
It’s as complicated as the genocide of native americans and their expulsion into “reservations” where they still lack the same access to infrastructure, healthcare, education as the rest of the country today.
As complicated as apartheid south africa or the irish republicans.
The history is complicated in the sense that it is war with many atrocities and injustices. But the root of the issue, the cause for all these atrocities that the colonialists suffer in retaliation is colonialism.
That really depends on how far back in history you want to go. We can even start with Muhammad and the Jewish tribes massacres (Banu Qurayza for example).
But honestly, I don’t think that that’s a productive approach. This is a live, dynamic and constantly changing conflict. The things that defined it 100 or even 50 years ago are no longer relevant.
The israeli people living there today have no ancestry back to mohammedan times. They’re 99% converts. But really, you wanted to go back to the start. As if you are going to find some historical excuse that could justify the use of white phosphorus, bombing of hospitals, the bombing of roads that the population were told to take to move south by the very same army doing the bombardment. Some point in time where you can point to and claim “See, this is why the israeli’s are justified in starving and bombing and terrorizing these people in an open-air prison”.
I remember it started when Israel begun its slow genocide.
No, just the times they have broken international law.
Edit: Oh no poor Israel being constantly accused of breaking international law after constantly breaking it ᕕ( ᐛ )ᕗ