UBI, or universal basic income, is a form of direct cash assistance to help the most vulnerable get back on their feet. A new study in Denver suggests it works.
  • pete_the_cat@lemmy.worldEnglish
    1397·
    9 months ago

    Simply put, a lot of people hate socialism aka “I’m paying so you can get something for free”. I’m all for it.

    My 73 year old father supports Trump (not one of the crazy people, just misguided) and hates Biden. He said one of the biggest things that Biden did that pissed him off was student loan forgiveness because my dad said he had to work 3 jobs in the early 70s to put himself through college (which he dropped out of and went into the electrical trade), so everyone else should have to struggle like he did, regardless of the fact that college cost him like $2,000 a semester and it costs like $12-15 grand now, assuming you’re not living on campus.

    • acceptable_pumpkin@lemmy.worldEnglish
      1461·
      9 months ago

      That’s such a sad argument. I heard a great counter to that line. Imagine we discovered a cure for cancer. This line of reasoning would say “well my mom suffered and died of cancer so why should others get a cure?”

      • Gigan@lemmy.worldEnglish
        9110·
        9 months ago

        Cancer is mostly random. Going into debt for school is a choice.

        • HonoraryMancunian@lemmy.worldEnglish
          851·
          9 months ago

          A choice typically made by 17 year old kids after having spent their entire life having it drummed into them that college is the correct step to take after school

          • hydrospanner@lemmy.worldEnglish
            571·
            9 months ago

            Also 17 year old kids, the vast majority of which have never taken on significant debt and have no frame of reference for the scale of obligation they’re taking on.

            It blows my mind that we look at an 17 year old and, as a government, we say, “Alcohol? Too young and immature. Handguns? Too young and immature. Tobacco products? Too young and immature. Voting? Too young and immature. Enlisting in the military or want to take on 5 or 6 figures of debt that will drive your major life decisions for the next few decades? Sign here.”

        • Bipta@kbin.social
          281·
          9 months ago

          What causes you to go to school? Generally a hope to fulfill your basic survival functions these days, like eating, safety, and temperature regulation. Are those needs choices?

          And what causes having those needs? Being born. Was that one’s own choice either?

          I think this argument won’t work well on those who came of age when a highschool degree would cut it, but it is logically rather sound based on present realities.

          • Gigan@lemmy.worldEnglish
            271·
            9 months ago

            I’m a younger millennial and went to school and got a degree. No debt. It’s a choice.

            • zaph@sh.itjust.worksEnglish
              481·
              9 months ago

              I love this argument. Absolutely no empathy for anyone who had different options and experiences, just straight up “I did it so anyone else can too.” You’re making the world a better place. /s

              • Gigan@lemmy.worldEnglish
                245·
                9 months ago

                I can have empathy for people in different situations than me, but it’s not my responsibility to bail them out of their problems.

                • null@slrpnk.netEnglish
                  272·
                  9 months ago

                  I really don’t understand people who don’t want to contribute to an overall better society.

                  I’m happy to pay more in taxes to have a healthier, better educated, and more stable society. It pays dividends.

                • AllonzeeLV@lemmy.worldEnglish
                  22·
                  9 months ago

                  I’ll just assume your family is penniless, sent you to poorly funded K-12 schools, and kicked you out on your ass onto the street the day you turned 18 with no warning or support of any kind, and you still somehow got a degree without debt.

                  Otherwise, you’d be a raging hippocrite born on third base crowing like you hit a triple! Clearly though that can’t be the case.

                  I’m sorry your family did you like that though, that’s rough.

                • jjjalljsEnglish
                  17·
                  9 months ago

                  it’s not my responsibility to bail them out of their problems.

                  Counter argument: Yes it is. As much as any responsibility exists at all, you have a responsibility to your fellow people.

                  “Well it’s not my responsibility” leads to a shittier world. And since you apparently have a degree and no debt, you can spare the energy to be better.

                  Or maybe just watch “The Good Place” again.

                • Nudding@lemmy.worldEnglish
                  203·
                  9 months ago

                  Well it is if you want a healthy society, other wise sure, every man for himself.

                • Rob@lemmy.worldEnglish
                  14·
                  9 months ago

                  No?

                  • Then don’t call the police when your house gets robbed because you chose not to build the walls and doors out of nearly unbreakable titanium, build the windows out of nearly unbreakable 6 inch plexiglass, and install the best available security system in the world. I don’t want to be paying for your choices, and this is your problem now.
                  • Don’t call the fire department when it burns down, either. Especially if you didn’t install a halon fire suppression system in every room and closet. Sorry for the loss of your house, neighbor, but your choices, your problem.
                  • Quit driving on public roads. Getting around without using them is your problem and I don’t want to pay for it.
                  • You’d better send your kids to private schools. It’s expensive, but hey, that’s your problem.
                  • Fortify the hell out of your home. If we ever get invaded, I don’t want the military defending it. It would suck if it got attacked and destroyed, but that’s your problem; I’m not bailing you out.

                  In fact, you know what? You should just drop out of society, go buy your own island, and declare yourself sovereign. There, you will only ever have to deal with your own choices and problems. You’ll never have responsibility for anyone else’s, and no one will have responsibility for yours.

                  The rest of us will be over here enjoying something called civilization, where people join together for their mutual benefit and aid.

                • zaph@sh.itjust.worksEnglish
                  13·
                  9 months ago

                  You think you’re personally paying off other people’s student loans? Don’t bother answering you’re obviously just a troll.

                • BigMacHole@lemm.eeEnglish
                  9·
                  9 months ago

                  What’s your opinion on bailing out Mega Corporations who didn’t responsibly save their money? Or is it ok to bail out Mega Corps but not ok to bail out your mechanic?

            • chepox@sopuli.xyzEnglish
              192·
              9 months ago

              That is quite a selfish viewpoint. Perhaps reconsider what you mean. Are you really stating that all people should have the same fate as you regardless of their starting conditions?

              • Gigan@lemmy.worldEnglish
                239·
                9 months ago

                No. But lots of people are bad financially and get themselves into too much debt without a way out and I don’t think I should be responsible for bailing them out.

                  • cricket97@lemmy.worldEnglish
                    117·
                    9 months ago

                    You can always tell when people run out of arguments when people respond to reasonable comments with “OMG I CANT EVEN”

                  • Gigan@lemmy.worldEnglish
                    227·
                    9 months ago

                    I seem to have struck a nerve, you must be one of the people I’m talking about.

                • hydrospanner@lemmy.worldEnglish
                  13·
                  9 months ago

                  A 17 year old kid is forced into taking on debt to attend college with, at the time they agree to it, no way of paying it off. It’s a gamble any which way you slice it. And they have no frame of reference to understand the decision they’re making.

                  The school isn’t on the hook to ensure they get gainful employment that would pay them enough to manage that debt. The loan servicer isn’t either. Only the kid is going to be held to anything, yet the shitty take is always, “They knew what they were signing up for, so fuck em. I want them to suffer for their bad decision.”

                  With all sincerity, I hope you encounter misfortune through no fault of your own that ruins your financial security for the next 20 years.

                  Maybe that’ll teach you a little empathy.

                  • cricket97@lemmy.worldEnglish
                    216·
                    9 months ago

                    No one is forced to go to college. And they definitely aren’t forced to attend 50k+/year universities.

                  • Gigan@lemmy.worldEnglish
                    219·
                    9 months ago

                    A 17 year old kid is forced into taking on debt to attend college

                    No they’re not! No is forced to go to college, and no is forced to go into debt to do it! Those are both choices they made! The premise of your whole argument is not true!

                    With all sincerity, I hope you encounter misfortune through no fault of your own that ruins your financial security for the next 20 years.

                    Unlikely, I plan ahead and don’t make stupid financial decisions.

            • Slatlun@lemmy.mlEnglish
              15·
              9 months ago

              You forgot this part of that claim - “And I didn’t get help from nobody neither”

        • underisk@lemmy.mlEnglish
          182·
          9 months ago

          I guess you’re against COVID treatments too because coming in contact with other human beings is also a choice. Lung Cancer cure? No thanks, they chose to smoke those cigarettes so I would like them to suffer.

          • jarfil@lemmy.worldEnglish
            222·
            9 months ago

            Lung Cancer cure? No thanks, they chose to smoke those cigarettes so I would like them to suffer.

            My mom died of Lung Cancer, didn’t smoke a single cigarette her whole life. So fuck you.

          • Gigan@lemmy.worldEnglish
            250·
            9 months ago

            I don’t want them to suffer, but I’m not paying for their treatment.

            • pomodoro_longbreak@sh.itjust.worksEnglish
              281·
              9 months ago

              I don’t want them to suffer,

              but I’m not paying for their treatment.

              I’m not trying to be spicy, but you must see how these two statements are contradictory.

            • underisk@lemmy.mlEnglish
              181·
              9 months ago

              If you have insurance, private or public, you’re paying for them either way. That’s how insurance works.

            • havokdj@lemmy.worldEnglish
              12·
              9 months ago

              Nobody wants to pay taxes bud, but if you don’t, the country will fall apart around you because of precisely that.

    • KevonLooney@lemm.ee
      English
      442·
      9 months ago

      It most certainly did not cost him $2000 per semester in the early 70s. It cost about $2000 for a full year at a private university. Around $500 if he went to a public school.

      https://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d07/tables/dt07_320.asp

      And that’s in 2007 money! $500 in 2007 converted to the early 70s is $90 to $100. Minimum wage was $1.60 per hour, so he would have to work 2 weeks at minimum wage to afford public school. 7 weeks for private school.

      What a burden! He might have to give up part of his summer!

    • Cryophilia@lemmy.worldEnglish
      131·
      9 months ago

      I hate that THAT is the argument against loan forgiveness. No one is making the actual argument - that this doesn’t fix the systemic issues that caused the debt in the first place and will actually make it worse for future generations.

      Student loan reform is what we need. Loan forgiveness without reform will cause tuition prices to increase for future generations.

      It’s millenials doing a “fuck you, gen z, I got mine” and we should be better than that.

      • pete_the_cat@lemmy.worldEnglish
        1·
        9 months ago

        Certain states are making tuition free for public universities if you meet their requirements, I know NY State is one of them.

    • scarabic@lemmy.worldEnglish
      81·
      9 months ago

      Does he have any grandchildren? Sometimes people feel this way only about “others” and have considerably different feelings about how “we” should be treated.

    • Cosmic Cleric@lemmy.worldEnglish
      61·
      9 months ago

      so everyone else should have to struggle like he did

      Remind him that as parents we’re supposed to leave the world a better place for our kids.