Why? Because a lot of their ideas were good. Creating a system of government that is immune or even resilient to corruption is very difficult, but the US has done pretty good all things considered.
I would say the Swedish constitution is substantially better, yet I never see anybody cite it as a supreme authority of morality. We have also changed it regularly since its total revision in 1974. I am not saying that the American one is necessarily bad, but I am saying it is just a law and should not be worshipped.
Edit: if you want to give it a read, the official translation can be accessed here (pdf)
Treating the constitution as if it cant be changed because it is “perfect” is wildly different than not wanting the government to boundary test how it can skirt the constitution to get what it wants. When the US government doesnt follow the rules that it was supposed to be bound to via the constitution, it is almost never a good thing.
The constitution set rules for how to change it legitimately. It was designed to be changed over time not flagrently ignored.
Who are you and why does it benefit you to support this narrative worshipping of the constitution? Because every response you’ve made in this thread is either trying to support the constitution as infallible or mock anyone making arguments against it.
Haven’t seen you make any attempt to prove you know otherwise. You just seem like an idiot debasing other people’s arguments rather than making any arguments of your own.
Hell the very post I was responding to you didn’t even make an argument, just tried to argue the person wasn’t talking about the constitution, when it would obviously be part of the base as a foundation of the country.
If it annoys you and you can’t actually provide anything, you should just leave. If you can provide something, then don’t waste people’s time.
100%. The only people that are gungho to overhaul the constitution at this point in time mean to do it irreparable harm. It’s a tough thing to navigate when you don’t believe the politicians involved have anything but the public’s unquestioning obedience in mind.
The constitution was designed to be vaguely descriptive, so that in the case that society does change, then statements can be interpreted in a way that supports the new view of the modern country.
For instance, while not in the constitution, the government set up no offical state language or religion, in the case that society had changed making what they said redundant.
Constitutions form the foundation on which everything else–laws, the economy, public services, politics, culture, national security–is built.
It’s one thing to look at how a new constitution might solve our current social ills, or to demonstrate how the old one is imperfect, it’s another thing to really consider the side effects of a change in constitution. What things we would lose that we take for granted, and to do so honestly, and critically?
Would America still be an imperialistic hegemony with a swedish constitution? If no, are Americans really truly ready to give up the benefits they enjoy that come with being a global hegemony?
We won’t really find answers to these questions in a tweet.
On paper it is the hereditary monarch, but they have no real power, so de facto it is the prime minister. Their role is to lead and to appoint ministers in the government, which is considered Sweden’s leading body.
The prime minister is selected by the parliament, the representation of the Swedish public, which is also responsible for deciding on laws and holding them and the government in check overall.
The prime minister has no term limit but they tend to lose support from the parliament (which gets elected every four years) sooner or later. For instance, the last prime minister, Magdalena Andersson, stayed less than a year.
Good question. Since 1974, the monarch’s role has been reduced to a purely ceremonial one because of common sense, but then and still today a lot of people think they’re valuable for our shared identity as a people. However, an ever-growing amount of Swedes such as me whole-heartedly disagree and advocate republicanism.
One fine day, when the monarchy has been relegated to the annals of history, where will Swedes turn to find their national identity, assuming a national identity is worthwhile?
Another good question. We do have a shared language and culture, but overall, our identity as a nation is slowly eroding – because everyone speaks English anyway, English is used whenever there is anything international involved. Because our standards of living are so high and because we are just cogs in a giant economic machine, we no longer have to resort to traditions or religion for comfort and stability. Also, the realisation that we are ultimately all humans and that countries are quite arbitrary is quite inevitable.
I can say that I, because a perfect society is quite literally impossible and because ultimatly the only thing that humans want is the fulfillment of their desires, believe that the rationality that will eventually be forced upon us by thinking machines will ultimately lead to a historical end station of artificially created pleasure. My main logic is that everything we do is driven by some desire, which means that a perfect state in whch all desires are fulfilled also has no actions, which are required by societies, and that ever-accellerating technological development will show a way around this by artificially modifying the brain to be in this state.
However, in the turbulence of modern society, I fail to see what the way there is going to look like – what is going to happen to nations, language, culture and the like when rationality renders them obsolete – there are just too many factors at play. I don’t think it is going to be pretty.
The West Wing S06 E14 - The Wake Up Call is a pretty good episode about the US constitution as a model.
We’re aware there are better constitutions, especially more modern ones. But if the US were to rewrite our constitution today, we’d be the United States of Bank of America. We have to appreciate what we do have or it’ll be gone.
The reverence for our constitution is important because it helps to enforce it. The piece of paper doesn’t do much on its own.
Yeah but a lot were also bad which is why it’s stupid when people act like the opinions of the founding fathers should matter more than the opinions of contemporary Americans when the same founding fathers were smart enough to realize the constitution should be a living document and not a holy totem to use as a club to stifle any progress.
I think there were only a couple bad ideas, which have been mostly fixed by amendments. It is a living document, it has changed over time. You could argue that it should be easier to change, but there would be consequences for that too.
I think we can find a middleground between “fuck em” and “their word is law”
In fact most of the time the people trying to make their word out to be law are using the most loose and self-pandering interpretation they can.
Like you said, the same founding fathers did not want it to be this way. I wish we’d argue harder how unamerican it is that people are treating the founding fathers with zealotry.
I know, but my point is that the founding fathers acknowledged they weren’t infallible which makes appeals to tradition and authority that many use to prevent progress in the US are extra dumb.
Not really. Apparently, some people are acting like idiots because they think the founding fathers would have thought a certain way. Sure, okay, sounds like a problem.
The Constitution is the supreme law of the land. Not a problem.
Two separate things only conflated by the uneducated.
Okay well, you sound uneducated to me. And since you can’t finish a single…single post in this entire thread without insulting people, I don’t see any point to arguing here.
Just…be mad I guess. Just try not to think you sound as smart or as mature as you think you do.
One of their ideas I personally think would be amazing: allegedly, Thomas Jefferson predicted the Construction would only last less than twenty years before we would completely overhaul our core document of governance. I believe rebuilding the specific details every couple decades would’ve helped tremendously…
~Every single generation since the founding of this country
I agree though. I can think of many times in history that a rewriting of the bill of rights would have excluded free speech. Imagine if the current supreme court had the authority to revoke the separation of church and state, and mandate that all public schools have a Protestant focus.
“Wisdom” like the 3/5ths compromise. They were writing it specifically because they were completely terrified of strong central governments and autocracy. They didn’t give one shit about anyone other than themselves and their rich compatriots. You used to have to be a landowner to vote. They had some good ideas but the fact a functional system of government came out of them that has any usage in the modern day is more of a happy accident than any real forethought.
The 3/5ths compromise is an interesting and often misunderstood one. Slave owning states wanted their slaves counted in the state’s population, because more people means more representation in the House of Representatives, and more electoral college votes. Since slaves didn’t have any say in politics, this solely benefited the people who owned them. Free states didn’t want slaves counted towards the census for that exact reason, and the 3/5ths compromise came out of that disagreement. It was never about how much of a person slaves are, and the bad guys got their way by exploiting their slaves for even more political power.
Well, it’s not like they randomly spewed the words in foundational documents. They did think it through. Luck was about historical conditions that they were in, so that they could make these conclusions.
That’s a pipe dream. Laws have weight because the constitution says they do, but the constitution only matters because it’s pretty much universally agreed upon. No constitution the Republicans would write will gain that kind of acceptance, or even the acceptance of a majority.
It pains me to admit I see your point. If we had developed some mechanism early on where problematic passages or even sections could be democratically identified, as well as a system to propose possible changes for vote…but now? Yikes.
Somehow, I want to believe it is possible to revolutionize our government, but without the usual bloodshed. I just wish I had any clue how… :p
It has done a horrible job of it all things considered. Basically all the fabled checks and balances have turned out to be based on nothing but good faith. The founders refused to consider that partisanship would evolve at all, let alone to the extremes it has turned into today.
Lots of other Western democracies are doing a lot better job at it, not least because they have been allowed to evolve and change with the times, while the core of the US political system has petrified in all its archaism.
Creating a system of government that is immune or even resilient to corruption is very difficult, but the US has done pretty good all things considered.
What cave were you living in between 2016 and 2020?
Creating a system of government that is immune or even resilient to corruption is very difficult, but the US has done pretty good all things considered.
Really? You think so, even tho we are essentially an Oligarchy with a huge amount of corruption, especially in the Supreme Court
Okay, but consider the fact that you are able to write that, and even take to the streets vocally demand change. Things might be bad, but you truly have no idea what it means to live in fear of your government.
Why? Because a lot of their ideas were good. Creating a system of government that is immune or even resilient to corruption is very difficult, but the US has done pretty good all things considered.
I would say the Swedish constitution is substantially better, yet I never see anybody cite it as a supreme authority of morality. We have also changed it regularly since its total revision in 1974. I am not saying that the American one is necessarily bad, but I am saying it is just a law and should not be worshipped.
Edit: if you want to give it a read, the official translation can be accessed here (pdf)
Treating the constitution as if it cant be changed because it is “perfect” is wildly different than not wanting the government to boundary test how it can skirt the constitution to get what it wants. When the US government doesnt follow the rules that it was supposed to be bound to via the constitution, it is almost never a good thing.
The constitution set rules for how to change it legitimately. It was designed to be changed over time not flagrently ignored.
That’s the problem, it cannot be changed anymore, the base problems with the system itself prevents it from doing so.
Sounds like you have an issue with these “base problems”, not the Constitution itself
Who are you and why does it benefit you to support this narrative worshipping of the constitution? Because every response you’ve made in this thread is either trying to support the constitution as infallible or mock anyone making arguments against it.
None of you idiots understand how the US government actually works and it annoys me.
Haven’t seen you make any attempt to prove you know otherwise. You just seem like an idiot debasing other people’s arguments rather than making any arguments of your own.
Hell the very post I was responding to you didn’t even make an argument, just tried to argue the person wasn’t talking about the constitution, when it would obviously be part of the base as a foundation of the country.
If it annoys you and you can’t actually provide anything, you should just leave. If you can provide something, then don’t waste people’s time.
I’ve said multiple times
The Constitution is the supreme law of the land
The Constitution can be changed, and we have done so multiple times
These are the core things that it annoys me people don’t understand.
100%. The only people that are gungho to overhaul the constitution at this point in time mean to do it irreparable harm. It’s a tough thing to navigate when you don’t believe the politicians involved have anything but the public’s unquestioning obedience in mind.
The constitution was designed to be vaguely descriptive, so that in the case that society does change, then statements can be interpreted in a way that supports the new view of the modern country.
For instance, while not in the constitution, the government set up no offical state language or religion, in the case that society had changed making what they said redundant.
The constitution provides for its own improvement by allowing itself to be amended
Constitutions form the foundation on which everything else–laws, the economy, public services, politics, culture, national security–is built.
It’s one thing to look at how a new constitution might solve our current social ills, or to demonstrate how the old one is imperfect, it’s another thing to really consider the side effects of a change in constitution. What things we would lose that we take for granted, and to do so honestly, and critically?
Would America still be an imperialistic hegemony with a swedish constitution? If no, are Americans really truly ready to give up the benefits they enjoy that come with being a global hegemony?
We won’t really find answers to these questions in a tweet.
Who is the head of state of Sweden? How are they selected? What is their term of service in the role?
On paper it is the hereditary monarch, but they have no real power, so de facto it is the prime minister. Their role is to lead and to appoint ministers in the government, which is considered Sweden’s leading body.
The prime minister is selected by the parliament, the representation of the Swedish public, which is also responsible for deciding on laws and holding them and the government in check overall.
The prime minister has no term limit but they tend to lose support from the parliament (which gets elected every four years) sooner or later. For instance, the last prime minister, Magdalena Andersson, stayed less than a year.
Edit: fixed typo
So why maintain the hereditary monarchy, even in a limited capacity? What role does it serve?
Good question. Since 1974, the monarch’s role has been reduced to a purely ceremonial one because of common sense, but then and still today a lot of people think they’re valuable for our shared identity as a people. However, an ever-growing amount of Swedes such as me whole-heartedly disagree and advocate republicanism.
One fine day, when the monarchy has been relegated to the annals of history, where will Swedes turn to find their national identity, assuming a national identity is worthwhile?
Another good question. We do have a shared language and culture, but overall, our identity as a nation is slowly eroding – because everyone speaks English anyway, English is used whenever there is anything international involved. Because our standards of living are so high and because we are just cogs in a giant economic machine, we no longer have to resort to traditions or religion for comfort and stability. Also, the realisation that we are ultimately all humans and that countries are quite arbitrary is quite inevitable.
I can say that I, because a perfect society is quite literally impossible and because ultimatly the only thing that humans want is the fulfillment of their desires, believe that the rationality that will eventually be forced upon us by thinking machines will ultimately lead to a historical end station of artificially created pleasure. My main logic is that everything we do is driven by some desire, which means that a perfect state in whch all desires are fulfilled also has no actions, which are required by societies, and that ever-accellerating technological development will show a way around this by artificially modifying the brain to be in this state.
However, in the turbulence of modern society, I fail to see what the way there is going to look like – what is going to happen to nations, language, culture and the like when rationality renders them obsolete – there are just too many factors at play. I don’t think it is going to be pretty.
The West Wing S06 E14 - The Wake Up Call is a pretty good episode about the US constitution as a model.
We’re aware there are better constitutions, especially more modern ones. But if the US were to rewrite our constitution today, we’d be the United States of Bank of America. We have to appreciate what we do have or it’ll be gone.
The reverence for our constitution is important because it helps to enforce it. The piece of paper doesn’t do much on its own.
Yeah but a lot were also bad which is why it’s stupid when people act like the opinions of the founding fathers should matter more than the opinions of contemporary Americans when the same founding fathers were smart enough to realize the constitution should be a living document and not a holy totem to use as a club to stifle any progress.
I think there were only a couple bad ideas, which have been mostly fixed by amendments. It is a living document, it has changed over time. You could argue that it should be easier to change, but there would be consequences for that too.
I think we can find a middleground between “fuck em” and “their word is law”
In fact most of the time the people trying to make their word out to be law are using the most loose and self-pandering interpretation they can.
Like you said, the same founding fathers did not want it to be this way. I wish we’d argue harder how unamerican it is that people are treating the founding fathers with zealotry.
Fine. If you can get agreement across the states as to which of those ideas are bad - you can amend them away.
I know, but my point is that the founding fathers acknowledged they weren’t infallible which makes appeals to tradition and authority that many use to prevent progress in the US are extra dumb.
…which has nothing to do with the Constitution.
Unless the appeal to authority is a literal appeal to literal legal authority.
…But it does have to do with what NOT_RICK was discussing prior to that post, which had to do with the constitution.
Not really. Apparently, some people are acting like idiots because they think the founding fathers would have thought a certain way. Sure, okay, sounds like a problem.
The Constitution is the supreme law of the land. Not a problem.
Two separate things only conflated by the uneducated.
Okay well, you sound uneducated to me. And since you can’t finish a single…single post in this entire thread without insulting people, I don’t see any point to arguing here.
Just…be mad I guess. Just try not to think you sound as smart or as mature as you think you do.
On it
One of their ideas I personally think would be amazing: allegedly, Thomas Jefferson predicted the Construction would only last less than twenty years before we would completely overhaul our core document of governance. I believe rebuilding the specific details every couple decades would’ve helped tremendously…
Can’t even imagine rebuilding constitution in our current political environment.
~Every single generation since the founding of this country
I agree though. I can think of many times in history that a rewriting of the bill of rights would have excluded free speech. Imagine if the current supreme court had the authority to revoke the separation of church and state, and mandate that all public schools have a Protestant focus.
Thus back to the wisdom of the founding fathers.
“Wisdom” like the 3/5ths compromise. They were writing it specifically because they were completely terrified of strong central governments and autocracy. They didn’t give one shit about anyone other than themselves and their rich compatriots. You used to have to be a landowner to vote. They had some good ideas but the fact a functional system of government came out of them that has any usage in the modern day is more of a happy accident than any real forethought.
The 3/5ths compromise is an interesting and often misunderstood one. Slave owning states wanted their slaves counted in the state’s population, because more people means more representation in the House of Representatives, and more electoral college votes. Since slaves didn’t have any say in politics, this solely benefited the people who owned them. Free states didn’t want slaves counted towards the census for that exact reason, and the 3/5ths compromise came out of that disagreement. It was never about how much of a person slaves are, and the bad guys got their way by exploiting their slaves for even more political power.
I will take accidentally being right (and tested over time) over thoughtfully being wrong.
Sure, but that isn’t wisdom, it is luck.
Well, it’s not like they randomly spewed the words in foundational documents. They did think it through. Luck was about historical conditions that they were in, so that they could make these conclusions.
One party is seeking a constitutional convention. In order to install a permanent Republican dictatorship.
That’s a pipe dream. Laws have weight because the constitution says they do, but the constitution only matters because it’s pretty much universally agreed upon. No constitution the Republicans would write will gain that kind of acceptance, or even the acceptance of a majority.
It pains me to admit I see your point. If we had developed some mechanism early on where problematic passages or even sections could be democratically identified, as well as a system to propose possible changes for vote…but now? Yikes.
Somehow, I want to believe it is possible to revolutionize our government, but without the usual bloodshed. I just wish I had any clue how… :p
Please for the love of God tell me this is satire
It has done a horrible job of it all things considered. Basically all the fabled checks and balances have turned out to be based on nothing but good faith. The founders refused to consider that partisanship would evolve at all, let alone to the extremes it has turned into today.
Lots of other Western democracies are doing a lot better job at it, not least because they have been allowed to evolve and change with the times, while the core of the US political system has petrified in all its archaism.
What cave were you living in between 2016 and 2020?
I think it’s honestly a testament to the system’s resilience that it managed to hold up for 4 years and not completely crumble.
Our institutions held on for 4 years. I don’t think they’ll hold on for another 4 though.
Cool, so about the other 98% of US history
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption_in_the_United_States
Right, let’s lead with that next time
Really? You think so, even tho we are essentially an Oligarchy with a huge amount of corruption, especially in the Supreme Court
Okay, but consider the fact that you are able to write that, and even take to the streets vocally demand change. Things might be bad, but you truly have no idea what it means to live in fear of your government.
You must not be a minority.
I mean you easily have 50 countries in the world where that’s possible. So it’s a pretty low bar you’ve set there.
Wow this is an America that is immune to corruption?
More than others. There are mechanisms for change. Most old world change meant conquer and then you might change things. If you don’t die first.
More than others, but definitely not more than other Western democracies, considerably less than them in fact.
More than other Western nations in 1787 though, that’s for damn sure
We made it less than a century before the first civil war. That’s an epic failure in my book.
Is your book a picture book?