There is really not much to be said.

North korea, russia praise is destructive.

The critique of those regions is obviously not “pro west” as is evident to anyone with a cell in their skull.

It just wastes all time.

  • алсааас [she/her]@lemmy.dbzer0.comMEnglish
    2111·
    2 個月前

    This post e.g. hasn’t been reported.
    https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/post/70745437

    If you don’t report, don’t expect action on stuff, but it will now be deleted.

    Though it seems more like a rule 6 instead of a rule 2? The DPRK literally doesn’t practice imperialism anywhere. Also western information on it is sketchy at best TBH…

    Edit: Saw the other recent posts of jankforlife, deleted them and they got a perma.

    None of these posts showed up in the reports just FYI.
    OFC moderation can be proactive, but that’s more work. If you want efficient moderation, do your part, read the rules and report accordingly

    • The D Quuuuuill@slrpnk.netEnglish
      121·
      2 個月前

      If you want efficient moderation, do your part, read the rules and report accordingly

      this is why i was asking you to help me understand how jankforlife and bubblybubbles were posting “truth nukes” because it all looked like rule 5 & 6 violations to me. but to see some of the most egregious of it getting endorsed by the head mod makes it hard to bother putting in the effort to report when so many of those reports get dismissed, and some of them even get a greenshield big thumbs up

      • алсааас [she/her]@lemmy.dbzer0.comMEnglish
        65·
        2 個月前

        I was only referring to one post as a truth nuke because it challaged a lot of western leftist misconceptions and was based from a Marxist perspective, it was not an endorcement of the user or any other post.

        As you can see I did clean up the mess, once being made aware of jankforlife posting stuff like the unreasonable gloryfication of the DPRK and most importantly “ukraine = Nazi” stuff here in this comm…

  • OBJECTION!@lemmy.mlEnglish
    405·
    2 個月前

    Does that extend to other countries like Cuba, Vietnam, or China? Also, what does “praise” entail, exactly? If someone posts misinformation about a country to make it look worse, and I correct it, does that constitute “praise?” If I oppose taking military (or economic) action against a country, is that the same as supporting said country?

    If I were to say, “The DPRK does not force everyone to get the same haircut,” is that acceptable? How about, “The largest military exercise takes place every year on the Korean DMZ where US forces practice bombing and invading the DPRK, as they did before in an extremely destructive conflict, and so, domestic policies aside, their hostility towards the US is understandable?”

    • vepr_jako_pepr@slrpnk.netOPEnglish
      9·
      2 個月前

      The statements in the last paragraph are reasonable, they are just truthful, they are not trying to divert effort towards dictatorship, just contextualise the world, it is easy to note the difference in my opinion

      • vepr_jako_pepr@slrpnk.netOPEnglish
        2·
        2 個月前

        But what benefit does constant refutation have really, the individuals in leninist dominated regions are sufficiently supported by their support under the conception of the international proletariat, they are not intrinsically members of a nation and the support of that nation does not translate into their liberation.

        • OBJECTION!@lemmy.mlEnglish
          151·
          2 個月前

          they are not intrinsically members of a nation and the support of that nation does not translate into their liberation.

          That is what’s traditionally known as “The National Question” and it’s a lot more debatable and nuanced than you give it credit for.

          Let’s take the example of Ireland, which was much discussed by various Marxists historically. The movement for Irish independence was not inherently socialist, and the resulting state was still a capitalist system. It was defined more along the lines of nationality than class. However, under the existing system, Ireland had been horribly exploited and abused by the English, and so, this raises the question of whether socialists ought to lend support to such a movement, even though it is not ideologically pure. This is, of course, not something that is specific to Ireland.

          Practically speaking, many struggles for independence have historically been more national in character. Frantz Fanon, for instance, was one Marxist who argued strongly for supporting such national liberation movements, observing that oppressed cultures can be stifled in psychological and cultural development because all they can think of is to be free of foreign control. Furthermore, the disparity between the rich and the poor of a colonized country may be less than that of the disparity between colonizer and colonized, and therefore an alliance along class lines can be permissible. Only after removing the pressing outside problem does internal class conflict emerge (and with it class consciousness), and until then it is unreasonable to expect the proletariat of a colonized country to recognize common cause with the proletariat of a colonizing country, especially if said proletariat does not emphatically support decolonization.

          In general, this idea that “everyone is included under the conception of the international proletariat” moves away from practical, materialist questions and towards abstract, idealist principles. The national question is very much a relevant and important question in the modern day. Yes, we can all say, “I support the liberation of the Iranian proletariat just like the proletariat of every country” but one person might “support Iranian liberation” through bombing the shit out of them, while another might support leaving them alone and letting them deal with their government on their own, in their own time.

          Eventually and ideally, socialists are broadly agreed that in time national distinctions will fade away and become unimportant and irrelevant. However, this must be done voluntarily. If the oppressed are expected to give up their cultural or national identities in order to receive support from socialists in oppressor countries, than this expectation is, and will be seen as, just another foreign imposition.

          • vepr_jako_pepr@slrpnk.netOPEnglish
            1·
            2 個月前

            ( the above comment was edited by “OBJECTION!” and mine was a response to the original)

            the national identity is their tie to their local oppressors, they are not close to it one bit There is nuance in many things, even dead ends

            • OBJECTION!@lemmy.mlEnglish
              61·
              2 個月前

              That’s not always true. There are plenty of cases where a “wealthy” person from a colonized country is able to get an education, which they then returned with committed to liberation. If you actually look into the histories of former colonies, you will often find such figures. Like I said, in colonized countries, the “rich” may be not so different from the poor, and that difference pales in comparison to the gap between them and the colonizers. In any case, trying to impose the same framework to every country regardless of the actual material conditions doesn’t really make sense.

              If Irish independence should not have been supported on the basis that it was a national movement, and therefore only tied the Irish to their Irish oppressors, if decolonization of India was pointless because it only left Indians under the thumb of Indian oppressors, then does the same logic not apply to cases like Ukraine? If Ukraine wins the war and remains independent from Russia, then will the war have been pointless because it was a nationalist effort rather than an internal class war, and only leaves Ukrainians under the thumb of Ukrainian bourgeoisie instead of Russian bourgeoisie?

              • vepr_jako_pepr@slrpnk.netOPEnglish
                3·
                2 個月前

                Just because the nationalists claim working class aesthetics, it doesnt change anything, this hypothetical educated individual is capable of betraying the working class with nationalist politics, and to say that applying the same brush to different regions is naive is just to provide room for the true naive statement that those “unreported” regions are better suited for nationalism.

                And you assumed my position on ukraine without asking, or in fact the general anarchist stance. Anarchists do not support ukranian nationalism despite the common desire between anarchists to prefer to support individuals in the ukranian nationalist supported region.

                But it is not always true, and I hope that anarchists develop ties across the nationalist drawn borders. There are clearly wonderful people squandered in the russian region. Please do not mistake the brave individuals in organisations such as “solidarity collectives” for idiots rather than people forced by the ukranian nationalists into allying with the ukranian nationalists under their circumstance. In any case they clearly try to maintain seperation if you follow their efforts and if you would analyse the situation outside of a big money news corp line, it is clear that the choice to shoot and bomb the incoming soldiers is sensical, despite their class interest.

                That then does not make those people nationalists, and people in less stressed theoretical circumstance absolutely should not propose nationalism in their name. And I do not like your line of singling out ukraine to this as to slyly construct a racist strawman.

                Well maybe they could be less attached to their homes and move, or rally elsewhere and return, but it is not silly to be attached to a loved environment.

                • OBJECTION!@lemmy.mlEnglish
                  5·
                  2 個月前

                  Just because the nationalists claim working class aesthetics, it doesnt change anything, this hypothetical educated individual is capable of betraying the working class with nationalist politics, and to say that applying the same brush to different regions is naive is just to provide room for the true naive statement that those “unreported” regions are better suited for nationalism.

                  Anyone is capable of betraying the working class. Also this isn’t a “hypothetical” individual, examples inclide Ho Chi Minh, Sun Yat Sen, Thomas Sankara, etc. In my opinion, nationalism does indeed have a different character in undeveloped, colonized countries than it does in developed, oppressor countries, because there are legitimate aspects of national development that are important to undergo. Once those things have been accomplished, nationalism becomes nothing but chauvanism.

                  And you assumed my position on ukraine without asking

                  I, in fact, asked, “does the same logic not apply to cases like Ukraine?”

                  In any case they clearly try to maintain seperation if you follow their efforts and if you would analyse the situation outside of a big money news corp line, it is clear that the choice to shoot and bomb the incoming soldiers is sensical, despite their class interest.

                  Huh. So what you’re saying is that it’s sensical to lend support to a common cause of repelling foreign occupation, rather than, or at least before, engaging in internal class conflict.

                  This flies completely in the face of your dismissive and oversimplified approach to the National Question, which is precisely why I brought this question up. It seems then, that in Ireland, it could by the same logic be reasonable for Irish socialists to have focused on repelling English occupation, in India, for Indian socialists to have focused on the same, etc. Of course, this is not necessarily the case in every circumstance, but this demonstrates very clearly that the topic is complex and deserves critical examination.

                  That then does not make those people nationalists, and people in less stressed theoretical circumstance absolutely should not propose nationalism in their name.

                  If an Irish socialist lends support to an Irish nationalist movement for the sake of repelling the English, does that make them an Irish nationalist? The distinction seems somewhat semantic. I have no problem saying that one should only “lend support” to national movements (in some situations), rather than “being a nationalist” if you’re allowing that distinction.

                  And I do not like your line of singling out ukraine to this as to slyly construct a racist strawman.

                  I have literally no idea what on earth you’re talking about. What strawman? What racism? This accusation is a complete non sequitor.

                  Well maybe they could be less attached to their homes and move, or rally elsewhere and return, but it is not silly to be attached to a loved environment.

                  I don’t recall saying that it was. Nor do I recall calling anyone an “idiot” for that matter. You seem to be reading a lot into what I said that isn’t really there.

  • db0@lemmy.dbzer0.comEnglish
    344·
    2 個月前

    FR. It’s ridiculous to see violating Rule 2 with impunity and not even getting a slap on the wrist.

    • naevaTheRat@lemmy.dbzer0.comEnglish
      104·
      2 個月前

      But but people who flee the DPRK often describe missing certain elements of community and belonging, finding the capitalist hellscape of south Korea isolating and inhuman for all it’s apparent luxuries.

      This means Juche is a true realisation of socialism and everyone critical or sceptical of the DPRK government is a fed.

  • OnyxRex@lemmy.dbzer0.comEnglish
    212·
    2 個月前

    I feel so lucky to have come up on the internet when I did. It was the sweet spot of getting unfiltered news and reports before authoritarian governments and think-tanks started censoring and pumping false information. Back in like 2008, Russian influencers were really saying somethings.

    Anyway, I agree.

  • rockSlayer@lemmy.blahaj.zoneEnglish
    198·
    2 個月前

    I’ve been on this community for a very long time. I have not seen the thing you’re trying to ban. Prove it’s a problem first before trying to rally people.

      • rockSlayer@lemmy.blahaj.zoneEnglish
        41·
        2 個月前

        That link doesn’t work for me, but I looked up the user and have an idea of what they post. Explain why you feel like the post is problematic.

        • ProdigalFrog@slrpnk.netEnglish
          72·
          2 個月前

          It was removed by the mod here. It was the astronaut ‘Always was’ meme saying that the DPRK was the most actually democratic country in the world. Glorifying a dictatorship.

    • Juice@midwest.socialEnglish
      105·
      2 個月前

      Stop restricting my freedom to self-medicate by making up people to get mad at /s

    • vepr_jako_pepr@slrpnk.netOPEnglish
      53·
      2 個月前

      I just scrolled for 2 seconds on the front page, unless they have all been deleted or something in reaction

  • skyline2@lemmy.dbzer0.comEnglish
    81·
    2 個月前

    Let’s say advocating in bad faith. The recent ones have been trolling for responses, and the OP is very combative. Not productive or enjoyable at all.

    If someone has a good or funny point to make, and isn’t a total POS in the comments, no ban.

  • therealdries@lemmy.dbzer0.comEnglish
    92·
    2 個月前

    I don’t agree.

    A wannabe troll that posts really dumb shit that is childishly easy to shoot down is worth their weight in gold.

    • The D Quuuuuill@slrpnk.netEnglish
      24·
      2 個月前

      trolls are never worth engaging with, even to shoot them down. that’s why they exist. they’re the online equivalent to the real life wrecker. they don’t exist for any reason but to make community spaces worse to be in. on a lefty community where the point is to foster and encourage organization, this is especially damaging, and i think that’s the point of those prolific fascist in leftist clothing accounts around here. what’s discouraging, as @db0@lemmy.dbzer0.com said, is that they’re allowed to just keep coming back

      • OnyxRex@lemmy.dbzer0.comEnglish
        6·
        2 個月前

        This is a good point. engagement itself will increase visibility. The best way to win is not to play…

          • therealdries@lemmy.dbzer0.comEnglish
            39·
            2 個月前

            Turning every leftist community into a siloed circlejerk is great if all you want is a glorified (and self-enshittifying) social club - but you’re not going to be doing anything that can be called counter-propaganda with a straight face.

            The latter actually requires engaging with people who will actively try and find the weak spots in your narratives while you are doing the same to theirs in a place where others can actually witness it and gain understanding through social osmosis, which, to be clear, text-based social media is really great for.

            Come now, be honest… how much did you actually learn that way?

            • The D Quuuuuill@slrpnk.netEnglish
              71·
              2 個月前

              a lot actually. that social osmosis is exactly why if you want to run counterprop you have to set some boundaries about that fascist bullshit will not be tolerated. this constant molly coddling of fascists and normalizing them as “the real left” just poisons what the left actually is. social osmosis works through the same concert of presence and verbal confirmation. by giving fascist nonsense presence we shift what the outcome of social osmosis is when people encounter verbal confirmation in space. you’re right that people can be influenced by reading discussion, but that discussion needs to be had in good faith and in order to have good faith discussions we need to have and respect boundaries. trolls, by their nature, do not respect these boundaries. the old age addage of “block and report. do not feed the trolls” stems from this notion

              • therealdries@lemmy.dbzer0.comEnglish
                23·
                2 個月前

                exactly why if you want to run counterprop you have to set some boundaries

                …which are already in place. This is a leftist-controlled space, is it not? And the rules there on the right gives the mods more than enough leeway to keep it that way, don’t you think?

                What it really comes down to, I’m beginning to think, is our willingness (or lack thereof) to engage the very people we (supposedly) want to expose to leftist thought.

                by giving fascist nonsense presence we shift what the outcome of social osmosis is when people encounter verbal confirmation in space.

                That only happens when we don’t engage them by siloing ourselves into circlejerks. A good counter-narrative means absolutely nothing if it has no means of leaving said silo - we’re just chucking energy and time at the choir for absolutely zero gain.

                but that discussion needs to be had in good faith

                No, it doesn’t. You need half of the discussion to be, very obviously, in bad faith. Otherwise, there’s absolutely nothing to shoot down, is there? You don’t get traction from good faith discussion - you get traction from a “bad faith” narrative being demolished with a narrative the casual observer is unlikely to have encountered before. How many movies have you seen where only two protagonists spend the entire movie being nice to each other? There’s a really good reason why they don’t make movies like that - there’d be nothing to see.

                the old age addage of “block and report. do not feed the trolls” stems from this notion

                Where’s the fun in that?

              • therealdries@lemmy.dbzer0.comEnglish
                13·
                2 個月前

                I’m going to have to modify my response to you - when I posted this…

                This is a leftist-controlled space, is it not?

                …I wasn’t actually aware that this comm has more tankie mods than leftist ones. So there’s no point to my argument, then.

  • SocialistVibes01@lemmy.mlEnglish
    69·
    2 個月前

    Leave DPRK alone, the guys are fighting against incredibly unfair odds and surviving. US murderers who divided the country don’t get the say on how they should live.