Hahahaha Holy shit THE RUSSIAN REPUBLIC has been doing these things longer than banderites?
The counter argument is that ethnic cleansing is bad, even if another governmental system in the same geographic region was accused of doing something by its geopolitical rival nearly a century ago.
You seem to be under the illusion that people think the Russian Republic isn’t a capitalist hellhole. It is. That doesn’t mean ethnic cleansing is somehow okay.
The logical conclusion to your line of argument is that the entirety of the west should be nuked by the way.
I don’t know how you get to that reasoning. So let me lay it out.
Ethnic cleansing is bad whoever does it.
People think because it happens elsewhere, it does not happen where they are.
It’s not happening as much in some places as it used to. And not to the same level.
Russian, along with China, Israel and their US proxy does it on large scale. Yes their populations seem wilfully ignorant of it.
Ukraine has a long history of corruption and anti-russian bias. Mostly justified as a bias. Stalin did kill them by the millions to the point where even the Germans looked like a better option(they were wrong). That does not justify them looking the other way when violence was committed against ethnic Russian Ukrainians.
Countries borders and sovereignty should be respected and can only be altered by mutual agreement.
Russia agreed to Ukrainian sovereignty and the borders in 1994, in exchange for Ukraine handing over its nuclear weapons. Russia have twice invaded Ukriane, breaking that agreement. The US also broke that agreement by refusing to support Ukraine during the first invasion of the Crimea.
Russia is an oligarchic capitalist state, a more advanced version of what has developed in the US.
China is slightly different in that their oligarchs are inside the political system, rather than controlling it from outside.
So the “verdict” as I see it.
Russia is a foreign invader in Ukraine and should leave unconditionally and be prosecuted for breaking the Budapest agreement. Russia should pay Ukraine compensation for the invasion.
Ukraine should prosecute its criminal factions committing human rights abuses. Or extradite those parties to stand trial in the ICC.
I think you’re the first person I’ve interacted with where I believe you might be a bot, this is peak US state department propaganda
If you actually are a real person, then you’re a great example of the “where to start” because there’s just soooo much going on. Like you are misconstrued on a fundamental level, having any rational conversation with you would require dismantling decades of propaganda.
Anyway your line of arguing goes like this: Someone brings up a bunch of evil shit the US and Ukraine is doing. Your rebuttal to “we should do something about this” is that you think Russia is worse, which functions as a way of justifying evil shit, as long as you think its done towards someone who in aggregate is more evil.
Following this line of reasoning we should nuke every major European power due to its history of colonialism, a good deal of the smaller countries and finally we can mop up everyone else in the west due to what happened between 1000-1600. If you want to set an arbitrary line that conveniently starts whereever some atrocity you are hallucinating, then I promise you the logical conclusion would still be to nuke at least The US, the UK, France, The Netherlands, Germany and probably Spain, Portugal and Denmark too.
And right now we are not even getting into your wild brainworms about what you think is happening around the world lmao.
I don’t see how when we have a rules based international order you end up at nucking Europe, so walk me through that one. Why is violence the logical endpoint and not justice as I have suggested?
I also don’t understand how you can believe the positions I have laid out as US state propaganda? Propaganda is usually silent on the crimes of the propagandizing party, where I have stated that the US is probably one of the top perpetrators of international violence in the world over the last 50 years of you look a number of people affected.
I also don’t see why you are blind to the “Russia is worse” point in relation to the Ukraine conflict.
Russia is in clear breach of the Budapest agreement it signed with Ukraine.
Russia invaded Ukraine
No one country gets to dictate to another country how it conducts itself inside its borders, unless they have made international treaty commitments.
Even if Ukraine did commit the violence on its own citizens, the correct response would have been to take it through the international community to Sanction and intervene. Like most of the world did with the first Iraq war, when Iraq invaded Kuwait. the Second Iraq war is an excellent example of the opposite, where the US invaded without proper sanction for manufactured reasons.
Lmao your talking points are way out of date. “Rules based international order” was always just bullshit propaganda and it became clear to even the average person when the west decided to continue their support of Israel during an ongoing genocide.
But thats not at all related to the discussion at hand, you are moving the goalposts. Your argument was that the ethnic cleansing carried out against the people of the donbass was acceptable because “Russia is worse”. You have already been walked through what this “since [designated enemy] is worse” argument leads to and why, asking to get it explained again without going into detail about what it is about the explanation (and in fact just ignoring it) makes your debatepervetry painfully obvious.
Why I’m “blind” to “Russia is worse”: This has also already been explained. Lrn 2 rid stoopid.
Budapest memorandum and other treaties:
The Budapest memorandum was broken by the US in 2014 when they couped the Ukrainian government. After this coup the government of Ukraine started ruthlessly shelling the two regions of Ukraine that didnt want to be ruled by a post-coup government installed with the support of Nazis. Due to the instability this brought to Russias borders and due to the fact that the majority of people in those regions identify as ethnically Russian, Russia stepped in and negotiated a series of treaties. They were then ignored and more were negotiated. These treaties are collectively referred to as Minsk I and Minsk II.
Any discussion of the war with relation to broken treaties that does not acknowledge the clear involvement of the US in Euromaidan nor the thousands of breaches of Minsk I & II is a discussion that is pure propaganda.
These treaties are also “international commitments” by the way. But I dont give a fuck about nation states so arguing that ethnic cleansing is okay actually because the government says so, is a moot point to me.
On propaganda: Buddy you are absolutely mired in propaganda and its so funny because you think you know it. Propaganda is not at all silent on the crimes of the “propagandising party” lmao, the idea that such a thing only takes one line of communication makes you look like a child.
During the cold war, the anticommunist ideological framework could transform any data about existing communist societies into hostile evidence. If the Soviets refused to negotiate a point, they were intransigent and belligerent; if they appeared willing to make concessions, this was but a skillful ploy to put us off our guard. By opposing arms limitations, they would have demonstrated their aggressive intent; but when in fact they supported most armament treaties, it was because they were mendacious and manipulative. If the churches in the USSR were empty, this demonstrated that religion was suppressed; but if the churches were full, this meant the people were rejecting the regime’s atheistic ideology. If the workers went on strike (as happened on infrequent occasions), this was evidence of their alienation from the collectivist system; if they didn’t go on strike, this was because they were intimidated and lacked freedom. A scarcity of consumer goods demonstrated the failure of the economic system; an improvement in consumer supplies meant only that the leaders were attempting to placate a restive population and so maintain a firmer hold over them.
If communists in the United States played an important role struggling for the rights of workers, the poor, African-Americans, women, and others, this was only their guileful way of gathering support among disfranchised groups and gaining power for themselves. How one gained power by fighting for the rights of powerless groups was never explained. What we are dealing with is a nonfalsifiable orthodoxy, so assiduously marketed by the ruling interests that it affected people across the entire political spectrum.
Michael Parenti
Most propaganda acknowledges that “nobodys perfect” and “sure we’ve done some bad stuff” and even “what we’re doing right now isn’t done perfectly either!” But “we have to intervene!” for whatever reason “and really, we’re trying out best!”
Look at any CoD campaign or those CIA movies Jim from the Office made. Look at how WWII movies make it out to look like the war was won on the western front, and if the Eastern front is acknowledged it perpetuates the long debunked myth of Soviet human wave assaults (that was written by the nazi generals by the way).
And so many other ways as well, it especially loves to get dumbass redditors who think they’re oh so clever - Start by making you all paranoid about “Chinese bots” (nevermind the largest documented bot farms are all american) and soon you’re frothing at the mouth. Whenever anyone points out anything bad NATO does - like installing more Nazis in the west German government than there were Nazis in the actual nazi government - then someone very much like you, who has been trained to be a good little dog, will do the work of the US state department for them - come up and talk about how its actually super nuanced. But that nuance is only afforded to the west, anything bad about [designated enemy] makes you bray for blood. Just look at this thread! Verified documentable cases of torture dungeons for the Ukrainian cannon fodder that get forced to the front, and what’re you types doing? Either denying or excusing it.
The atomic unit of propaganda is not lies, but focus
Some journalist, whose name I forget.
Propaganda is everywhere, its in the way we use language. We have governments and deputies, they have regimes and “hand picked successors”.
We dehumanise Russians and call them orcs. Ukrainian terror bombings of civilian centres in Russia are celebrated in Western media - Its not denied, its just framed as a good thing. “That’ll teach them”.
Read Inventing Reality if youre going to talk about this shit, educate yourself.
On the first Iraq war: Holy shit you truly do just believe everything CNN tells you lmao.
In 15 years time you will be calling for NATO intervention in Ukraine in order to depose the Easter European Taleban we are creating right now.
Not hearing a counter argument? Just saying that Russia and other places have been doing it for far longer and at much larger scale.
Hahahaha Holy shit THE RUSSIAN REPUBLIC has been doing these things longer than banderites?
The counter argument is that ethnic cleansing is bad, even if another governmental system in the same geographic region was accused of doing something by its geopolitical rival nearly a century ago.
You seem to be under the illusion that people think the Russian Republic isn’t a capitalist hellhole. It is. That doesn’t mean ethnic cleansing is somehow okay.
The logical conclusion to your line of argument is that the entirety of the west should be nuked by the way.
I don’t know how you get to that reasoning. So let me lay it out.
So the “verdict” as I see it.
Lol, just trying to slip some anti China talking points in there
I think you’re the first person I’ve interacted with where I believe you might be a bot, this is peak US state department propaganda
If you actually are a real person, then you’re a great example of the “where to start” because there’s just soooo much going on. Like you are misconstrued on a fundamental level, having any rational conversation with you would require dismantling decades of propaganda.
Anyway your line of arguing goes like this: Someone brings up a bunch of evil shit the US and Ukraine is doing. Your rebuttal to “we should do something about this” is that you think Russia is worse, which functions as a way of justifying evil shit, as long as you think its done towards someone who in aggregate is more evil.
Following this line of reasoning we should nuke every major European power due to its history of colonialism, a good deal of the smaller countries and finally we can mop up everyone else in the west due to what happened between 1000-1600. If you want to set an arbitrary line that conveniently starts whereever some atrocity you are hallucinating, then I promise you the logical conclusion would still be to nuke at least The US, the UK, France, The Netherlands, Germany and probably Spain, Portugal and Denmark too.
And right now we are not even getting into your wild brainworms about what you think is happening around the world lmao.
I don’t see how when we have a rules based international order you end up at nucking Europe, so walk me through that one. Why is violence the logical endpoint and not justice as I have suggested?
I also don’t understand how you can believe the positions I have laid out as US state propaganda? Propaganda is usually silent on the crimes of the propagandizing party, where I have stated that the US is probably one of the top perpetrators of international violence in the world over the last 50 years of you look a number of people affected.
I also don’t see why you are blind to the “Russia is worse” point in relation to the Ukraine conflict.
Even if Ukraine did commit the violence on its own citizens, the correct response would have been to take it through the international community to Sanction and intervene. Like most of the world did with the first Iraq war, when Iraq invaded Kuwait. the Second Iraq war is an excellent example of the opposite, where the US invaded without proper sanction for manufactured reasons.
Lmao your talking points are way out of date. “Rules based international order” was always just bullshit propaganda and it became clear to even the average person when the west decided to continue their support of Israel during an ongoing genocide.
But thats not at all related to the discussion at hand, you are moving the goalposts. Your argument was that the ethnic cleansing carried out against the people of the donbass was acceptable because “Russia is worse”. You have already been walked through what this “since [designated enemy] is worse” argument leads to and why, asking to get it explained again without going into detail about what it is about the explanation (and in fact just ignoring it) makes your debatepervetry painfully obvious.
Why I’m “blind” to “Russia is worse”: This has also already been explained. Lrn 2 rid stoopid.
Budapest memorandum and other treaties:
The Budapest memorandum was broken by the US in 2014 when they couped the Ukrainian government. After this coup the government of Ukraine started ruthlessly shelling the two regions of Ukraine that didnt want to be ruled by a post-coup government installed with the support of Nazis. Due to the instability this brought to Russias borders and due to the fact that the majority of people in those regions identify as ethnically Russian, Russia stepped in and negotiated a series of treaties. They were then ignored and more were negotiated. These treaties are collectively referred to as Minsk I and Minsk II.
Any discussion of the war with relation to broken treaties that does not acknowledge the clear involvement of the US in Euromaidan nor the thousands of breaches of Minsk I & II is a discussion that is pure propaganda.
These treaties are also “international commitments” by the way. But I dont give a fuck about nation states so arguing that ethnic cleansing is okay actually because the government says so, is a moot point to me.
On propaganda: Buddy you are absolutely mired in propaganda and its so funny because you think you know it. Propaganda is not at all silent on the crimes of the “propagandising party” lmao, the idea that such a thing only takes one line of communication makes you look like a child.
Most propaganda acknowledges that “nobodys perfect” and “sure we’ve done some bad stuff” and even “what we’re doing right now isn’t done perfectly either!” But “we have to intervene!” for whatever reason “and really, we’re trying out best!”
Look at any CoD campaign or those CIA movies Jim from the Office made. Look at how WWII movies make it out to look like the war was won on the western front, and if the Eastern front is acknowledged it perpetuates the long debunked myth of Soviet human wave assaults (that was written by the nazi generals by the way).
And so many other ways as well, it especially loves to get dumbass redditors who think they’re oh so clever - Start by making you all paranoid about “Chinese bots” (nevermind the largest documented bot farms are all american) and soon you’re frothing at the mouth. Whenever anyone points out anything bad NATO does - like installing more Nazis in the west German government than there were Nazis in the actual nazi government - then someone very much like you, who has been trained to be a good little dog, will do the work of the US state department for them - come up and talk about how its actually super nuanced. But that nuance is only afforded to the west, anything bad about [designated enemy] makes you bray for blood. Just look at this thread! Verified documentable cases of torture dungeons for the Ukrainian cannon fodder that get forced to the front, and what’re you types doing? Either denying or excusing it.
Propaganda is everywhere, its in the way we use language. We have governments and deputies, they have regimes and “hand picked successors”.
We dehumanise Russians and call them orcs. Ukrainian terror bombings of civilian centres in Russia are celebrated in Western media - Its not denied, its just framed as a good thing. “That’ll teach them”.
Read Inventing Reality if youre going to talk about this shit, educate yourself.
On the first Iraq war: Holy shit you truly do just believe everything CNN tells you lmao.
In 15 years time you will be calling for NATO intervention in Ukraine in order to depose the Easter European Taleban we are creating right now.