I’ve been a long time Redditor and an Apollo user for about a year. I even paid for it. The main draw for me was the lack of advertising. In the back of my head I kept thinking that it couldn’t last. Reddit is losing revenue from the lack of advertising views. It didn’t
To me, Reddit’s sky high pricing for the use of the API is intended to kill off apps like Apollo and for its users to move to the advertising filled web site or its own app, which I’ve never used.
If Huffman came out and said this was a revenue move right off would everyone be as upset as they are? Are people upset because Huffman completely mishandled the move or because they got their ad free experience turned off? If Reddit had an app the same quality as Apollo only with ads, would they be OK with it. I’ve only used Apollo so I can’t speak to the other apps.
I can’t blame Reddit for wanting to make money. It doesn’t make a profit. Investors have to keep pouring in money to keep it going. They’re going to want to see a return on their investment at some point. Usually they cash in on an IPO, but IPO’s are generally only successful if the corporation looks like it will be profitable or at least the stock price continues to go up. That’s how capitalism works.
In my case, I probably would have left regardless. I can’t stand adds in my feed. I probably wouldn’t have heard of lemmy or kbin if there hadn’t been such an uproar. So I’m glad it went the way it did.
The problem is more about Reddit not giving a fuxk to the users who have made the platform. They obviously know in advance what 3rd party apps and tools people have been using. If they are really keen on keeping the matter civil, Reddit could have granted them free or reasonable access but it prefers not to. I think this is pretty telling.
Yah, no, a big part of this from the start was to force users on to their app. They want to go public and cash out but to do that they need to consolidate control of the platform. As it stands, users being able to customize their experience and choose how they interact with the sight through an open API undermines the companies ability to manipulate users experiences to suit the interests of investors and advertisers.
Getting rid of third party apps was always one of the central goals, not an accidental casualty, it was never going to be civil with that goal in mind.
I really don’t think that 3rd party apps were anything but collateral damage. I think his real goal is to try and capitalize off of AI training.
He clearly saw these companies using reddit data to train AI for like no money and got upset.
I call BS on that. Large-scale content scraping was already against the TOS to begin with. And you can’t kill off slow stealth scraping without also blocking search engine crawlers. Or at least not without hurting the searchability.
There would have been no outrage if Reddit valued its users. If they came out and said they were going to start charging (a reasonable amount) for API access but were giving developers until the end of the year to prepare no one would have batted an eye.
Most would probably migrate to the Reddit app for free. Some would just start paying to use the app of their choice and we’d have moved on.
Reddit showed their true colors which was a big f you to the free labor and free content producers of their platform.
I would’ve paid $5-$10 a month to Apollo had this all been handled professionally. Instead I’ve deleted Reddit , fired up an rss feed app and I’m also here now. There’s a handful of communities I haven’t found a suitable replacement for but I’ll live.
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FreshRSS is great, if you like self-hosting, and you like a web interface
Lemmit.online is using Reddit’s rss feeds to share the posts to the fediverse. Worth giving a look.
Check out Inoreader (plus Reeder for an A+ iPhone/Mac/iPad experience). I’ve found Inoreader to be by far the best RSS reader, and I’ve been using it for years now. It’s UI is very slick and unassuming, but has a ridiculous number of settings and preferences if you really want to dial in your experience
If their official app and “new” reddit layout ain’t shit there won’t be so many users using paid 3rd party apps to begin with. Fix your product instead of force killing competitors.
Didn’t reddit used to be profitable? I think we should start by asking what decisions they made that reduced their profitability. Is it the video player that nobody asked for? Deciding to self-host images? Developing an app that nobody wants to use? It seems to me like they put themselves in this position.
What this is really about and people are just starting to realize is: the interests of the shareholders and CEO who want to get rich is not compatible with volunteer content and a volunteer modded site. People aren’t eager to do unpaid work just so the CEO can get rich. This API stuff is just exposing it.
What I actually want is to be able to pay Reddit or Google or whoever it is a fair amount of money, say the amount they’d make by showing me a reasonable number of ads, plus a bit more. Say 10% more. In exchange for making more money from me than they would with ads, they would let me use old.reddit.com, or a third party app and not show me any ads.
I get an ad free service, Reddit gets more money than they would have before.
I figure that the amount would be easily less than $10 per year.
They would have to show something like this: at the end of each month, they tell me that I consumed so much of Reddit. They would have shown an ad every 25 posts, at $0.0005 per ad impression. So my payment for the month will be $x.
But then you’d be a premium user and in a demographic even more likely to spend money so you’d get “catered purchase opportunities” from advertisers that paid even more for your special eyes…
Hence why I pay for YouTube.
I have as blockers up the wazoo, but they provide a very solid service. I’m happy to pay to get something I value without ads.
Digital ads are a time tax on the poor and technologically illiterate.
As of 3 weeks ago, I would’ve been willing to:
- Pay for reddit premium in order to use a third party app.
- Stuck around even without a third party app, using only the old.reddit interface for as long as that was going to work with Reddit Enhancement Suite.
- Allowed ads to get through my ad blocker on Reddit.
- Kept my old comment/link history accessible on the site.
- Continue to use reddit.
Now I’m basically unwilling to do any of those things. The interviews they gave up through the first 2 days of the blackout made me pledge not to actually pay reddit any money (and I’ve paid for gold from when it was first announced, as a “charter member,” till when they decided to dramatically increase the price in exchange for a complicated “premium” offering).
And since then, the hamfisted way they’ve dealt with mods and protests are getting me to leave the site early, too, and going out of my way to delete my old comments and posts that actually added information to the site, plus deleting or otherwise breaking the URLs of my content that have been linked from anywhere on reddit (whether in a post by me or reposted by someone else).
I was upset to lose Apollo but hearing that they where going to exclude some apps for accessibility I thought to just move there. My main issue is ads. Just any alternative to avoid the ads on their app was gonna be good for me…. Then they started completely mishandeling the protest exercising their technical authority over the subs and content and i got to lemmy real quick.
That is just a trap. Any app that gets exceptions will either be heavily restricted or instantly get too many users and reddit can then claim it’s not just an accessibility app. They have not spent any time thinking about how that would work and they just said it because it was an argument against them. If they cared even for a second about accessibility the app would already have it but they they chose to add NFTs to the app instead.
Yup, ive read the post from r/blind they are just stabbing in the dark to calm ppl down at this point.
I haven’t heard anyone say that they’re upset because Reddit needed money. Actually I’ve heard more understanding people, they wanted Reddit to stay alive and were willing to possibly say yes to subscriptions/ad based content.
But spez completely shit the bed on the entire thing. Giving them the crazy high prices, the incredibly short deadline, hiding the pricing for those 2 months, then trying to blame it on AI, and just everything. Yes, if they had a level headed leader at the front of their corporation I could very well see myself preparing to pay a couple bucks a month to Reddit to get a good experience, they could get their “Residual Income”.
Instead he had to go all megalomaniac and demand everyone bend to his will - and I left permanently.
Yep. The headline could have been “Reddit to start charging for Premium if users want to use third party apps” and it would’ve been and gone in a day or two.
Instead, Huffman’s ego stepped in and he gave media cycle red meat with how he’s handled this. The story now is how aggressive, dishonest, and incompetent he looks. I think there’s a lot yet left to be written about a tech company that relies entirely on the health of its community treating members of that community so poorly and so openly attributing that to $$$.
I used to pay for a reddit gold to support the site because Ai (naively) beloved it was a worthwhile investment in a website that connected disparate, niche communities and served as a repository of knowledge.
Don’t I look like an idiot now. Fuck u/spez
Obviously the details matter, and many things happened all at once.
For example, the original policy was going to force out all free open source clients, and that was later retracted, but the damage to the company’s reputation was already done.
For example, clients for the visually impaired could have been set aside as a special case immediately, and they weren’t, and as I understand it they still aren’t.
For example, third-party clients that don’t show ads could have been blocked without restricting third party clients that assist mods.
For example, the result of the blackout could have been some sort of sympathetic statement, but instead it was the hammer getting laid down, leading to even worse results.
So you’re a question is whether the outcome would have been different if the administrators had acted differently, and of course the answer is yes. That being said, what we’ve learned is that the administrators do not value the mods or the end user. All of the above issues simply don’t matter to them because they don’t care.
You talked about capitalism as if it’s inevitable, but you’re wrong. The decision to try to make a lot of money was made, many other online services have made other decisions, and you don’t get to excuse the actions of anyone in the administration on the grounds that it’s just the natural consequence of capitalism.
I would be happy to pay a fair price to remove ads and gain access to 3rd party apps. They should just bake that into the Reddit Gold perks.
While essentially killing off 3rd party apps is disappointing, I could’ve understood and been willing to switch to the official app and maybe even pay monthly for no ads and more features.
What made me leave is how poorly Huffman and the company treated the developers, moderators, and users.
For developers:
- Reddit went back on their word about no API cost changes this year
- Lied about making the API cost reasonable
- Gave developers very little time to adjust
- Treated developers and their apps as freeloaders instead of as a source of growth for Reddit when they didn’t even have an app yet
- Blatantly slandered Apollo’s developer
For moderators:
- Reddit treated moderators as if their input didn’t matter despite providing free labor for the site
- Framed them as being power hungry for disagreeing and protesting Reddit’s decisions
For users:
- Reddit treated users as if their input didn’t matter despite Reddit being a user-generated content site
- Treated their contributions to the site as Reddit’s property, not their own
- Essentially said users are just a bunch of whiney babies who are powerless, have no willpower, and will visit the site no matter what we do
Also, even besides Huffman showing his true colors as being a total asshole, it just makes Reddit’s poor leadership SO evident. How do you become such a popular site with free content and free moderators, and still can’t make money? How do you manage to turn a great Reddit third-party app into a buggy mess of an official app? Why are you constantly prioritizing what you think users want instead of just listening to them? And now you essentially just told all of us: “fuck you, I own you and your content, and I am entitled to to make money off of you.”
If I put on my tinfoil hat, I think Reddit might have a long-term plan here.
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Hike up the API price to a point where 3P apps like Apollo will have to shut down, making them worthless, after so much was invested in them
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Get users upset with the lack of features on the official app
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Make the 3P app developers look like bad guys
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Wait a month or so
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Publicly offer to buy a popular, and now worthless, 3P app ^for way too little money^, in order to use the features for the official app
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Point out that the 3P dev is a monster if they don’t sell, since it would help users so much, and Reddit is a Community, after all
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Excellently said! Can I nominate you to represent me in the fediverse?
Like others have said, there are multiple factors at play:
- The official reddit app sucks in terms of basic usability
- The offiical reddit app has poor accessibility
- The official website, while generally well optimised for mobile, keeps forcing users to use the reddit app - see point 1
- Reddit is trying to position themselves as an ad company (see here for one user’s explanation), so it’s in their benefit to get people using the mobile version where they can hoover up sensitive information for serving ads.
- Reddit are trying to grow their ad platform. Third party apps interfere with that. Reddit understandably wants to kill them off.
- Reddit are aware that people like third party apps and people don’t like their official app.
Now, if Reddit had been honest and transparent throughout the entire process and just killed off the APIs without charging for it and gave the straightforward explanation, I think people would be sad as they are emotionally invested in their apps, and there would be some people who would go for good. But a lot more people would come back to Reddit - let alone seek alternatives like Lemmy, KBin, Tildes, etc.
What has happened is that the CEO has tried to make apps “the villain” and reddit the “poor little company” - sort of like DARVO but for 3rd party apps, so they could paint their official Reddit as the “wholesome” one.
Except the reddit community is large and pretty smart - technically and legally too. Receipts were kept, the CEO was exposed for his blatant lies, and then he has become incredibly unhinged and angry that things haven’t gone his way, giving incredibly aggressive interviews. And the Reddit community notices, because whenever Reddit is in the news, it’s very rarely for a good reason. The CEO was shown to be wearning no clothes after all.
I’ve seen Reddit go through drama, but never quite like this. It’s quite incredible and astonishing how one person could fuck up a transition this badly. Spez has repeated that the Automod is going to be killed, but given the blatant lies that came before, it’s no wonder why folks aren’t trusting him on his word. He’s made his bed, he has to lie in it.
Reddit isn’t an ad company, reddit is a sock puppet company. They are selling the ability to control the narrative.
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All the drama and pisspoor management by spez aside, ultimately the way I used reddit is through RiF. To me, that’s reddit. I can’t stand their official app and their official website is horrendous.
They forced my app to close down so I guess that’s that.
I stopped using RiF and consequently reddit in protest. I held out hope this was a shitty negotiation tactic by Reddit and they’d eventually back off somewhat. But they’ve tripled down on it.
This forced me to reevaluate my relationship with the platform and I decided to check out Lemmy kbin and mastodon. I also checked out some old forums I frequented before reddit took over.
I reinstalled a newsreader and set up RSS feeds for my favorite things.
Basically, I’m realizing I don’t need reddit as much as I thought I did. I actually have enjoyed the fediverse,beehaw in particular, more. I never used Twitter but mastodon has really great content and engagement as well.
I’m not saying I’d never go back to Reddit. I probably would if RiF somehow survived, but reddits lost its luster for me and I don’t trust it anymore. So why waste time actively participating there so I can have the rug pulled from under me again?
Reddit may not see a mass exodus like Digg or Myspace, but it’s been poisoned and over time the rot will set in and it will fester. This will be the moment people point to as the turning point.
I used to use Tweetbot to read my Twitter feed. I would read the latest 100 tweets every day. When the plug got pulled on the app, I just stopped reading Twitter at all and don’t miss it. In the case of Apollo, I scroll through my feed for an hour or more if I’m bored with nothing else to do. I mostly looked at funny, wtf, and photos. It was mostly a waste of time, however entertaining it might be. So when Apollo shuts down, like you, I may not need Reddit as much as I thought.
