Self defense. But also like someone else said proportionate response is key. If someone gets mad at you in a bar and throws a punch, pushing him away is fine. Hitting him to subdue him is probably okay. Shooting him dead is not.
I’m also not really okay with people using murder to defend their stuff. Like if someone sneaks into my house and I catch them going out the window with my tv, shooting them is not to me justified. There are more TV’s. That guy gets one life. Remember what Gandalf said.
I think a lot of people have like tough guy fantasies about shooting a burglar and it always makes me uncomfortable.
On the other hand, if someone was on trial for shooting a Nazi dead I would find them not guilty. Shame that Nazi spontaneously bled out. But at least he’s gone before he killed my entire family and friends.
For anyone who sincerely didn’t get the reference:
Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement. For even the very wise cannot see all ends.
I’m good with you shooting someone entering your house, but not when they’re leaving. I don’t expect people, especially vulnerable ones, to bet their life that the guy breaking in is a thief and not a rapist or murderer.
It might be availability bias or similar, but there are a lot of stories about people shooting people entering their house or property that should not have been shot.
It’s possible there’s a bunch of unreported instances of people successfully defending themselves with guns. Scenarios like that where the person on the property really was there with deadly intentions. But I kind of feel like no. I’m pretty sure the scenario of “someone breaks into your house to murder you!” is actually extremely rare. (or if it does happen, it’s the police)
We should also take a moment to think on the chilling effect accepting this level of violence has. I don’t want this to be a world where I have to worry about being shot because some idiot feared for his life or property.
I was visiting a friend in upstate New York and I was legit worried walking from the train to their place. I wasn’t sure which house was my friend’s. I called them and had them come out and greet me because I didn’t want to risk going to a neighbor’s house by accident, and have that neighbor shoot me because they thought I was a burglar. And I’m a white guy.
I would agree those are unreasonable uses of force. And bad raids don’t end with LEO getting shot nearly enough.
The comment I was replying to mentioned someone stealing a TV through a window if I’m not mistaken, and that’s what I’m referring to. But if you decide to force your way into someone’s house, it’s not on them to interrogate you to determine your intent. I have respect for people that would risk themselves in a situation they didn’t create, but I don’t think it’s reasonable to force everyone to behave as tho the guy that just broke your window or forced his way into your house is just there for a cup of tea.
Problem with proportionate response is these things happen quickly. You have adrenaline pumping, you don’t know if your attacker has a weapon, you can’t wait for a cop to show up, and often a punch isn’t going to do much. Unless you’re a boxer or something like that, fighting is hard and ineffective.
Proportionate response is basically saying “Yeah, you can defend yourself, but you’re rolling the dice if you do”
Also, for the record, non lethal weapons don’t work reliably. Tasers can get caught in clothes, druggies ignore pepper spray. Only a lethal weapon is reliable. If you want to carry something for self defense, you want reliability.
I mean… Maybe? How often does that ever happen? Most of the scenarios I’m thinking of are like someone is yelling at you about a parking spot. If someone shoves me because they’re mad I took their spot, pulling out a gun is not justified.
People have these fantasies about someone breaking into their house and they heroically use their gun to save their stuff. What’s more likely is you shoot your kid sneaking in drunk, or a guy who went to the wrong address.
You should avoid irrevocable decisions when you’re hepped up on adrenaline. You called it a roll of the dice. Escalating your response is also a roll of the dice.
Also you said only a lethal weapon is reliable. That’s not really true. People miss. Guns misfire. People forget how to work the safety. Or they accidentally hit someone behind their target.
But my table was just called for dinner so I’m going to go and leave you with this half baked reply. Have a good and hopefully violence free night!
If someone shoves me because they’re mad I took their spot, pulling out a gun is not justified.
In that example, you have no idea if they have a gun in their pocket. All you know is you have a crazy person angry at you.
Escalating your response is also a roll of the dice.
True, but not escalating is also a roll of the dice. If you don’t shoot, and you guessed wrong, you’re dead. If you shoot and you guessed wrong, you aren’t dead. It’s a roll of the dice, but you get to decide which dice you roll.
Self defense. But also like someone else said proportionate response is key. If someone gets mad at you in a bar and throws a punch, pushing him away is fine. Hitting him to subdue him is probably okay. Shooting him dead is not.
I’m also not really okay with people using murder to defend their stuff. Like if someone sneaks into my house and I catch them going out the window with my tv, shooting them is not to me justified. There are more TV’s. That guy gets one life. Remember what Gandalf said.
I think a lot of people have like tough guy fantasies about shooting a burglar and it always makes me uncomfortable.
On the other hand, if someone was on trial for shooting a Nazi dead I would find them not guilty. Shame that Nazi spontaneously bled out. But at least he’s gone before he killed my entire family and friends.
“You haven’t aged a day”?
For anyone who sincerely didn’t get the reference:
“Fool of a Took”
Well, you don’t age when you’re dead. You just moulder.
It’s spelled Mordor, geez.
I’m good with you shooting someone entering your house, but not when they’re leaving. I don’t expect people, especially vulnerable ones, to bet their life that the guy breaking in is a thief and not a rapist or murderer.
It might be availability bias or similar, but there are a lot of stories about people shooting people entering their house or property that should not have been shot.
There was one about a kid who went to the wrong house https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/ralph-yarl-shooting-victim-highly-intelligent-gentle-soul-former-teach-rcna80024
There was a story about delivery drivers who got shot at recently. https://www.npr.org/2023/04/23/1171507677/south-florida-shot-at-instacart-delivery-driver-wrong-address. That’s actually a good example of the shooter unnecessarily escalating. He could’ve just… Not shot at them. They were trying to leave.
There’s the related story of https://www.npr.org/2023/04/18/1170593395/kaylin-gillis-new-york-driveway-kevin-monahan that page links
None of these are okay.
It’s possible there’s a bunch of unreported instances of people successfully defending themselves with guns. Scenarios like that where the person on the property really was there with deadly intentions. But I kind of feel like no. I’m pretty sure the scenario of “someone breaks into your house to murder you!” is actually extremely rare. (or if it does happen, it’s the police)
We should also take a moment to think on the chilling effect accepting this level of violence has. I don’t want this to be a world where I have to worry about being shot because some idiot feared for his life or property.
I was visiting a friend in upstate New York and I was legit worried walking from the train to their place. I wasn’t sure which house was my friend’s. I called them and had them come out and greet me because I didn’t want to risk going to a neighbor’s house by accident, and have that neighbor shoot me because they thought I was a burglar. And I’m a white guy.
I would agree those are unreasonable uses of force. And bad raids don’t end with LEO getting shot nearly enough.
The comment I was replying to mentioned someone stealing a TV through a window if I’m not mistaken, and that’s what I’m referring to. But if you decide to force your way into someone’s house, it’s not on them to interrogate you to determine your intent. I have respect for people that would risk themselves in a situation they didn’t create, but I don’t think it’s reasonable to force everyone to behave as tho the guy that just broke your window or forced his way into your house is just there for a cup of tea.
Problem with proportionate response is these things happen quickly. You have adrenaline pumping, you don’t know if your attacker has a weapon, you can’t wait for a cop to show up, and often a punch isn’t going to do much. Unless you’re a boxer or something like that, fighting is hard and ineffective.
Proportionate response is basically saying “Yeah, you can defend yourself, but you’re rolling the dice if you do”
Also, for the record, non lethal weapons don’t work reliably. Tasers can get caught in clothes, druggies ignore pepper spray. Only a lethal weapon is reliable. If you want to carry something for self defense, you want reliability.
I mean… Maybe? How often does that ever happen? Most of the scenarios I’m thinking of are like someone is yelling at you about a parking spot. If someone shoves me because they’re mad I took their spot, pulling out a gun is not justified.
People have these fantasies about someone breaking into their house and they heroically use their gun to save their stuff. What’s more likely is you shoot your kid sneaking in drunk, or a guy who went to the wrong address.
You should avoid irrevocable decisions when you’re hepped up on adrenaline. You called it a roll of the dice. Escalating your response is also a roll of the dice.
Also you said only a lethal weapon is reliable. That’s not really true. People miss. Guns misfire. People forget how to work the safety. Or they accidentally hit someone behind their target.
But my table was just called for dinner so I’m going to go and leave you with this half baked reply. Have a good and hopefully violence free night!
In that example, you have no idea if they have a gun in their pocket. All you know is you have a crazy person angry at you.
True, but not escalating is also a roll of the dice. If you don’t shoot, and you guessed wrong, you’re dead. If you shoot and you guessed wrong, you aren’t dead. It’s a roll of the dice, but you get to decide which dice you roll.
You too! Stay safe.