Basically a repost pf things I said in the mega, but anecdotally I’m hearing that sales of fiction read by men are dropping precipitously, and English and literature classes in colleges are now dominated by women. It seems like young men are not being exposed to literature in the same way that they used to. Like, when I was in high school and college, you could be a “bro” kind of guy and read Chuck Palahniuk, or Hunter S. Thompson, or David Foster Wallace. For decades, authors like Hemmingway and Bukowski found receptive audiences in young men, not to mention all the crime fiction, horror, sci-fi, and fantasy that men have traditionally consumed. The “guy in your English class who loves David Foster Wallace” was a stereotype for a reason. I read in another thread that music is less culturally important to young men than it used to be. It seems like younger men just straight up see no value in reading literature or fiction, or exposing themselves or critically engaging with art and music, because the algorithms just railroad them into Alpha Gridset world.
Am I wrong about this? Am I being condescending and out of touch, or is this a real thing that’s happening, where the whole “male” culture is turning into grindset podcasts and streamers?
Edit: Okay, so the impression I’m getting is that everything is worse but also kind of the same as it ever was, which sounds right.
All of my friends went to uni so its a biased sample, but id say about 80% of my masc friends read like actual literature. All of them have read various slop novels/manga, but they do engage with art, just less often.
Generally, from what I’ve seen; the biggest issue is not “the kids aren’t reading hemingway!!!” because, actually, in my high-school; a good chunk of students were given the “classics” as assigned reading in English, as well as some other ones like Hatchet and such. Neighboring school districts had different ones, but same principle. This was city, as well; so I am not sure if the bougies cut out classics elsewhere or if the city I had just had a ton of donated books. People my age also just prefer to read more short-form content.
That is sort of a thing I notice though. Attention-spans are being fucking shot. This isn’t even unique to Gen Z; I know boomers, X, etc who will sit on their phone and just scroll and scroll. Hell, I do it sometimes; how else do I get dank lefty memes?
A good chunk of people can retain their spans, I can still read Dune or watch a 3 hour video without losing attention. However, I worry more for children who are being handed a tablet as a form of “here kid, get outta my hair”.
Youre also asking rich white kids on a leftie forum
Xi pays the big bucks tbh. I get 20000 RMB a second!
Not a man but I am in the age range. I mean it may be the case that more people are turning to parasocial relationships and falling into manosphere holes because of the internet. But also idk, maybe we’ve got to take stock of how misogyny plays a role into all this? Most men (and I truly mean, like 99% of them) don’t want to unpack the way they hold privilege and power over women. In decades past in which men were reading books more, they also had legal control over their wives? Women were gatekept out of academia for centuries. We live in a patriarchy and that needs to factor into any analysis of men as a social class that happens.
I think there’s an internalized misogyny that’s getting worse at play as well, where it’s feminine (and therefore weak and shameful) to explore feelings or one’s inner life in a serious way. It seems like that kind of misogyny is increasing.
I think a good question to ask, is the misogyny increasing or are you just getting better at recognizing it and/or being exposed to more of it because of the internet?
(the misogyny has always been there and is incredibly widespread)
That’s a good question. It’s generally my view that the past four years have been a massive setback for the left and the general sentiment has become much more reactionary, including an increase in overall misogyny. But I don’t know to what extent that’s reality or my own perception of things.
I think this ties back into my main comment.
Nobody posts on their social media that they just enjoyed X, Y, or Z literature or art. I won’t say for sure that this is because the people who take the time to genuinely enjoy these things don’t really give a fuck to tell everybody else about it, but that’s what I think is happening.
The internet has provided all sorts of assholes the ability to spread their message to millions of people. Unfortunately, you might be right that this is leading to an increase. Personally, I think these people were always around, and would’ve latched onto these type of ideas with or without the internet.
I don’t know if it’s attention spans or w/e but it does feel like fewer people of all generations are reading now, and when they do read, they just want slop. Anything that demands engagement or effort from the reader is denounced as ‘badly written’. It drives me a bit mad tbh, because at the same time that people smugly reject good literature, you can see that they’re unfulfilled reading the same old dreck for the millionth time.
A common thing I used to see on Book Twitter was people complaining at the lack of beautifully written prose that focuses on the interior life and I just want to scream THAT’S MODERNISM YOU’RE DESCRIBING MODERNISM, READ THE WAVES, PLEASE READ THE WAVES, IT WILL MOVE YOU SO DEEPLY, but the thing is that while they want that, they also only read YA dystopian fiction written in the past simple as an iron rule.
Most conversations I have with people my age start with “I saw this Tiktok…”. Very dire. Don’t care if I sound like a cranky boomer.
Eh, this one is a funny point tbh, do you get the same reaction when someone says “I saw this YouTube video” or “I saw this on the news” etc?
Aren’t tiktoks necessarily like <60 seconds? That’s intentionally engineered to be more mindless than a YouTube at least has the potential to be. On the other hand, I hear on the news that the tiktoks are radicalizing the youths so I gotta give critical support.
On the OTHER other hand, it’s an APP
I also appreciate that tiktok seems to intentionally lower the barrier to entry by (so I’ve heard) showing new accounts’ videos to people, where youtube would bury them
That’s YouTube shorts. TikToks can be much longer than 1 min.
30 minutes I’m seeing online, that’s decent for a video essay even.
I only started using TikTok cause a cool commie I follow on YouTube posts exclusive (long-form) content on TikTok 🤷♂️
And tbh I found many other cool commies on my FYP. Like the algorithm is much better than YouTube. YouTube will still from time to time suggest sigma grindset videos to me, or straight up fascist shit even. That has never happened on TikTok.
Depends on the context really, but yeah, sometimes. I don’t mind any of it if other things get discussed, but it gets tiresome after a while.
No one has ever been “i saw _____ on youtube” and it ever been anything morally good, very occasionally my IRL friend will reference a YT video essay or something, but otherwise it’s usually something frivolous (not necessarily bad) or some heinous culture war shit.
No one has ever been “i saw _____ on youtube”
I guess, but it’s usually “this video is cool” or something like that. But it’s usually a YouTube link
do you get the same reaction when someone says “I saw this YouTube video”
How could you not?
Anything that demands engagement or effort from the reader is denounced as ‘badly written’.
I HATE CINEMASINS
I HATE CINEMASINS
ding 
It drives me a bit mad tbh, because at the same time that people smugly reject good literature, you can see that they’re unfulfilled reading the same old dreck for the millionth time.
I think there is an unexamined craving for stimulating literature, the kind that actually provokes additional lasting thought about what is read, but that doesn’t boost sales in the short term the way “My Boyfriend Is A Billionaire Navy SEAL Werewolf” or “Space Captain Murica Murderfucks The Cosmos” does.
lack of beautifully written prose that focuses on the interior life
From what I’ve seen, most people don’t even know they might enjoy that and are just looking for some kind of perfect slop instead, sort of like a malnourished person that only has corn syrup options at a food desert might keep trying new food coloring varieties hoping to feel less sick.
Its crazy how important a book can be. A whole concept can be understood by a culture almost entirely through the lens of one piece of literature. It makes me think of the post “Sci-fi short stories are very efficient. You read something in 20 minutes and think about it for the rest of your life”
Its crazy how important a book can be. A whole concept can be understood by a culture almost entirely through the lens of one piece of literature.
Yeah. It’s unfortunate that some cultures can pick up some horrid ideas from a particular piece of literature, such as Alan Greenspan and a lot of finance ghouls like him basing Burgerland’s economic policies on a feverish Ayn Rand power fantasy involving magic metal, perpetual motion machines, and actually-smart billionaires that could somehow deliver hours long speeches repeating “fuck you, got mine” and somehow winning over the masses.
but the thing is that while they want that, they also only read YA dystopian fiction written in the past simple as an iron rule.
I was watching a YouTube video yesterday tmaking fun of YA dystopian fiction and there were endless comments about how great the Hunger Games is. A lot of “Best book ever! Someday it will be seen as proper literature!” Granted, I haven’t read the book (only saw the movies), but it was Battle Royale in the future instead of the present day.
I dunno. I want to let people enjoy things, but I also think a lot of this stuff is just shit. Battle Royale was already pulp, so Hunger Games being a copy is even more pulp. The same goes for 50 Shades of Gray being Twilight fan fiction turned into a whole series.
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I want people to enjoy things, and there’s nothing wrong with trash! I enjoy a lot of trash! But there’s so much more!
If something isn’t immediately understandable it’s “badly made”. This is true of software too. The term “user friendly” has come to mean “can a clueless new/prospective user pick this up and engage with it immediately?” less “Does this provide the experience existing users want to see?”
Oh man don’t get me started. I’m so tired of Angry That The Terminal Even Exists Guy, and that’s before we even get to the co-optation of the concept of ‘accessibility’. NO, NOT BEING ARSED WITH LEARNING A DIFFERENT PARADIGM, WHILE UNDERSTANDABLE, IS NOT A DISABILITY
“I want to rename my music library using this specific naming scheme and organize them in this specific directory structure and I REFUSE TO USE THE TERMINAL”
If something isn’t immediately understandable it’s “badly made”.
Applying this standard to art is a bad idea
but philosophical letters by voltaire is basically slop as is candide which is also by him.
Is it a bad thing that Pangloss was what made me seriously question my own apathy and conformism? I can see why Candide is kinda slop but I think if everyone read Candide we’d have a lot more people interested in actually changing the world, IDK.
ITT, generationalism bullshit. sigh.
Not in the age group, but I read a hell of a lot more at that age than I do in my 30s.
I’m not of that age, but imo it’s more a technological thing than a generational thing. People, of any age, cannot put their phones down. I personally have to make the conscious decision to disconnect if I’m going to read something or watch a movie or whatever. I imagine that for people who grew up with smartphones, that’s like cutting off a limb.
You may get a “kids were always like that”
response, but before that happens, I want to remind everyone reading this that material conditions do change and having a monetized distraction machine in almost everyone’s pocket is a material difference from previous generations.People have been complaining that kids are constantly on their phone as long as kids have had phones, but, from the perspective of someone who was in high school when high schoolers first started getting cell phones, the most text messaging addicted person in my peer group back then would be about average from what I’ve seen now.
I remember when adults first got their cell phones on a wide scale and had to make a performative big deal of being on a cell phone in public, including holding up a line while there’s people all the way out the door behind them, having to flex on the person being called.
“Oh hi. I’m at (place UlyssesT worked and was just trying to fucking survive). I’m on my cell phone. Where are you?”
Remember the wired earpiece guy? Guy holds up a finger and holds his other hand to his ear: “Yea sorry I gotta take this.”
I still fucking hate those devices because some of the most insufferable douches that got me in trouble because they “had to take this” were distracted by them while waddling to the front of the line. I used to call them “ear fedoras” because of how obnoxious they were.
bad vibes all around
From 100 WPM on a T9 keyboard to grandma’s addicted to FarmVille and candy crush in only a few years
As a former educator that worked with teenagers for some time, I can tell you that it’s possible to get kids interested in literature because they are still open to new ideas and can get downright habitual with their reading with the right encouragement, but unfortunately the Bill Gates-driven ruinous “reforms” that have dominated public schools for decades now have dictated that reading only matters as far as it teaches future workers to read and follow instructions, not how to think critically. Critical thinking was, and continues to be, something that a lot of parents outright abhor and see as some sort of evil influence.
Also, by default, most kids that cruise through school with apathetic teachers follow the defaults given to them, which are to aspire to escape peonage by becoming a parasocial parasite instead.
what reforms are you talking about comrade, never heard of this, is this a usian thing?
It’s a nightmarish privatization and standardized testing business grift that started in the Dubya days but was made worse under Obama (fuck you Arneson, fuck you forever). Its most notorious propaganda product was called “Waiting for Superman” and it was used as the definitive media material across the US as a "and this is why we need to fuck over teachers and deliberately drill students on standardized tests at the expense of everything else and make the tests so gruelingly tedious that failing them is not only expected but a good thing for business because that means more privatization!
Little trivia tidbit: Bill Gates was one of the primary lobbyists and financiers of these so-called “reforms” and he was always an Epstein Island enjoyer, but Epstein himself was also granted an advisory role for these “reforms” and was even assigned his own classes to teach in a private campus, entirely unqualified, which basically served as yet another source of pedo adventures.
These ruling class ghouls wanted to screw children in more ways than one.
Critical thinking skills are not on the test, so they won’t be needed!
Depending on the school district, critical thinking skills, called out in that exact terminology, are seen as rebellious and anti-parent by chuddy parent groups.
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IT SUCKS IT SUCKS IT SUCKS
I’m begging anyone in my immediate circle to just read a book or think about what they watch just a little. You don’t have to be a scholar, God knows I’m not either, but it’s so BORING. I dunno, maybe it’s me, but I try to like, have a slightly in-depth conversation about any piece of media or art or whatever with someone and I just get nothing. We’re all hooked up to the slop spigot and can’t turn it off.
Also GET OFF YOUR FUCKING PHONE WHEN WE’RE HANGING OUT.
I do not use any social media (except this site, I guess) and it is bizarre trying to connect with anyone else. When people ask for my insta or whatever, I just say I have a phone number and that’s it. If you want to get at me, text me or call me. I don’t look at my phone when I’m hanging out with people unless it’s to show them a picture or video that I took. People are always showing me tiktoks and I’m just like, “Oh, it’s youtube but worse.” Algorithmic content is poison. We’re approaching a point where people make zero choices about what goes into their brains and it’s terrifying and also the lamest fucking thing ever.
Same here. I have a dummy cell phone that I use exclusively to receive calls or some text from my relatives (I prefer calls). It’s worrying how you can become a ghost if you’re not on any social network. People are usually like “give me your WhatsApp”, “tell me your Instagram user”, what? If you need me, here’s my number, that’s it, haha.
IT SUCKS IT SUCKS IT SUCKS
I’m begging anyone in my immediate circle to just read a book or think about what they watch just a little. You don’t have to be a scholar, God knows I’m not either, but it’s so BORING. I dunno, maybe it’s me, but I try to like, have a slightly in-depth conversation about any piece of media or art or whatever with someone and I just get nothing. We’re all hooked up to the slop spigot and can’t turn it off.
A small but significant part of why I hated Gambo from the start as a fad was because my old friend group, the people I played tabletop games with and generally hung out with, used to discuss and argue and joke about concepts from Star Trek, Lord of the Rings, and whatever else was out there that caught their attention, but when Gambo came out it became “DID YOU SEE THAT?!”
and “HOLY SHIT THEY JUST MURDERED ANOTHER STARK!” without any particular interest in anything but the spectacle of it and spreading that spectacle.Also GET OFF YOUR FUCKING PHONE WHEN WE’RE HANGING OUT.
And yes, a lot of that was phone-driven. So many times, even during a tabletop session, the phones stayed out and they wouldn’t just distract themselves, they’d try to distract me.
“Look at this, UlyssesT. This will blow your mind.” 
“Right. I saw that scene already. I’ll never see that guy from Pacific Rim the same way again. Now what do you want to do on your turn?” “Are you offended? I’m sorry, but not everything can be rainbows and sunshine. We’re all grown-ass men here, right?”My friend group adjusted over time and some people drifted out of it, but that experience haunted me. I lost something.
Now that you mention it, yeah. Of my school cohort, me and my best friend at school are the only guys in the year who went into the arts. It’s actually kind of insane.
At my uni, I was one of 2 guys in my class. In the whole year, it was me and maybe like 2 other guys who had any sort of traditional male hobbies/ways of presenting. Otherwise it was camp gay men, and a couple of straight guys who were just like, idk, theatre kids.
I think it speaks to a socioeconomic thing too though. Most other guys I meet who are in the arts are living off daddy’s money.
In that sense, yes absolutely. There’s a huge prevalent mindset of anti-intellectualism and hopelessness that leads to individualistic hustle culture with no appreciation for the arts. I think you’d see the same thing in any nascent fascist society in history, where any actual love for art is replaced by much shallower symbols in the service of reinforcing hegemonic masculinity. But even among my leftier friends, if I send them a message that’s longer than 2 sentences I’m very likely to receive an “I ain’t reading all that” (even a literal 3 sentence message).
I think music has probably retained a similar relevance for my age group as previous ones, but the way that people engage with music is a lot more easy come easy go, which means that unless you have a specific kind of personality you’re unlikely to try to dig much meaning out of music, especially men with lower emotional intelligence. But there’s still the same drive to make music a part of your identity, just shallower.
But even among my leftier friends, if I send them a message that’s longer than 2 sentences I’m very likely to receive an “I ain’t reading all that” (even a literal 3 sentence message).
Keepin it a band I cut people off and out for this.
If you can’t be fucked to read something longer than two sentences I don’t fuckin want you around me; and I don’t give a fuck how elitist that makes me come off. I don’t have time, energy, or patience for the willfully ignorant; and with my list of comorbidities, that kind of flippant comment is probably one of the quickest ways to tempt me into splitting on a motherfucker.
every now and then I ask my friends if they read the article I sent them, makes me feel bad because of the asymmetry since they haven’t sent me anything to read either so I can’t hold myself to the same standard. But we should all endeavor to surround ourselves with people that challenge us intellectually and hold ourselves to a higher standard along the way.
But even among my leftier friends, if I send them a message that’s longer than 2 sentences I’m very likely to receive an “I ain’t reading all that” (even a literal 3 sentence message).
This may bite me in the ass someday by admitting it now, but if anything crushes my morale in an internet argument, it’s when the other person resorts to “u think u so smart”
or outright “TL;DR” especially after demanding evidence of whatever I was saying.It’s pigeon-shitting-on-checkerboard tactics and they hurt because they work.
This was my go to when I was arguing debate bros on
i ain’t reading all that
Many such cases.
“Uhm, whatever that means” Gestures broadly, appealing to nonexistant crowd
The way people engage with music these days seems to be whatever gets popular on tiktok and whatever hits the spotify algorithm jackpot. Outside of my friends who are musicians, I don’t think I’ve talked to single person under 40 that listens to albums.
That’s interesting, you don’t know many terminally online (online outside of tiktok) people? All the terminally online guys I know are at least kinda into some music subculture, usually some kind of indie rock or hip hop subgenre. The more normie types of guy aren’t listening to albums though.
But even among my leftier friends, if I send them a message that’s longer than 2 sentences I’m very likely to receive an “I ain’t reading all that” (even a literal 3 sentence message).
This is wild, are all your conversations lacking any challenging thoughts?
Well I said “very likely,” the truth is probably closer to “I’m autistic and sometimes start a mini infodump on a friend who isn’t interested, but also sometimes I have a genuine thing to share that gets boy-who-cried-wolfed into being ignored.” If we’re already in conversation in person or over a call, we can usually talk about deeper subjects, although usually the men don’t participate as much in a deep convo. I don’t know how much of that is unique to my age group, but it lines up with OP’s observations.
Funny enough one of my close friends, same age group, tells me he almost never talks about politics with another circle of friends of his, but one time got into a huge struggle session because one of them very dumbly kept defending the idea that it was cool and good that people could buy up and own lakes, while everyone else rejected the idea because it just seemed incongruent with their values, without much theoretical basis. And it makes sense that something like that happens, right? Private property is a downright intuitive ideological principle, but also has all sorts of points of contradiction with other values people have, even when people don’t go and read up on the enclosure of the commons, primitive accumulation, etc they understand that it’s not natural for a single person to be able to claim a whole lake. But because no one had the language or a system to talk about this problem, they just went in circles. Would this discussion have happened in a gen X group of dumb guys? I think it easily could have, but something about the fact that no one involved had a real dog in the race ideologically, they were just saying “no it doesn’t work that way” or “yeah but if you think about it should work that way,” is new.
the truth is probably closer to “I’m autistic and sometimes start a mini infodump on a friend who isn’t interested, but also sometimes I have a genuine thing to share that gets boy-who-cried-wolfed into being ignored.”
Many such cases, down with neurotypicals.
although usually the men don’t participate as much in a deep convo.
I have interest in this, could you expand on it by chance?
I have interest in this, could you expand on it by chance?
I don’t have a huge sample size, since I’m the only COVID conscious person I know and therefore haven’t been social IRL since 2020, but out of everyone I talk with the only one who bothers talking about the themes and framing of media in a deeper level is a femme NB friend. All the guys subscribe to the “it ain’t that deep” school of thought. That’s just my anecdotal experience though.
I have this anecdote more broadly, I can count on one hand the amount of deep, considered discussions I’ve had with men in my life, lol. Ty for sharing.
I’m a little out of this age range but I feel like my friends kinda grew out of that mindset. Like I knew a guy who wanted to get into real estate a few years ago, but nowadays he’s a firefighter and certified EMS. Maybe it’s a little later than previous generations but most people get their shit together by their late 20s, seems like.
I don’t know if anyone has said this, cause there’s a lot to read here, but I think you’re just seeing all this online. Nobody posts on their social media that they just enjoyed X, Y, or Z literature or art. I won’t say for sure that this is because the people who take the time to genuinely enjoy these things don’t really give a fuck to tell everybody else about it, but that’s what I think is happening.
I’m pretty sure there’s a term for this phenomenon that I can’t think of right now, but yeah you’re just getting exposed to drivel that is not representative of actual people.
I’m older than this range, but still a “Zillenial” for context.
Survivorship Bias, basically. The presentation of data is filtered out by physical circumstances.
I think it has more to do with rise of social media becoming the preoccupation of the youth’s attention, alienation under capitalism, loneliness and lack of socialization with peers than the type of media they consume.
Capitalism has made it increasingly hard to have meaningful satisfying friendships, but the capitalists are happy to sell fake friends in their stead.
