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I’d say it started even before that in the 80s the Reagan’s trickle down economics and the fetishization of corporate success.
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You say that as if we tried voting. People keep voting for literally the opposite of the resolution of this problem, it is no wonder it isn’t working for you!
“We need to take it by force” does not necessarily follow “They won’t give up power voluntarily”. People with civil war fantasies need to have a sit down and have a long fucking think about what that implies. What we need to do is revive a culture of labor solidarity that we’ve allowed to wither since the heyday of labor unions in the country.
Yall realize many of the rights we have as laborers now we’re won with force… Right?
Like, yes collective bargaining, labor solidarity, etc. is super important (which is also a form of force) but there were literal armed conflicts between laborers and the police on behalf of companies.
I’m not saying we need a civil war, but let’s not pretend we won our rights today without bloodshed.
Edit: Left out a key word, whoops.
And they’re definitely willing to use force to protect their entrenchment. If you’ve got a different way to get power back please start working on it now because we’re running out of time to do anything other than kill them all.
I’m saying we need a civil war, but let’s not pretend we won our rights today without bloodshed.
Oh, I didn’t mean it like that. More that using force as the tool of overthrow is fundamentally a mistake. Obviously in any sufficiently powerful labor movement there will, inevitably, be those who attempt to use both legal and illegal force to disperse them. Force is thus necessary to defend the other processes of labor solidarity - forming unions, protests, strikes, lockouts, etc.
Many people, not all of them unreasonably, will side with the system in the case of a violent revolution, though. When a shooting war starts, you can’t un-shoot the bullet once you realize the death toll will reach the millions - it will be carried on to its gruesome end, and that may not be to a left-wing victory.
For those who think that a revolution would have overwhelming popular support, for God’s sake, a third of the country still believes nonwhite and LGBT folk are inferior, and another third doesn’t fucking care. Supporting a violent leftist overthrow is not gonna be on the agenda for them, no matter how much theory you’ve read and how solid your arguments about their exploitation are. The last third will be difficult to convince - not unreasonably, considering the value placed on democratic ideals and processes.
And the situation is similar, if less severe, in other developed countries at this time.
Fwiw I did mean to say, “I’m not saying we need a civil war.” Though, honestly, I’m not saying we don’t either. It just wasn’t really the point I was trying to make in that moment.
I think I more or less agree with you though. Violence is not necessarily my first choice, but it’s naive to think the opposition will listen without it. Or at the very least the threat of it.
The reality is that our power structures heavily favor the owning class, and they’re not going to hand over that power laying down. Collective action and such is of course the first step, but as you mentioned force will be used to dispurse labor movements.
No they don’t realise.
People have been propagandised to so much they have no comprehension how much blood was spilt in pursuit of barely tolerable working conditions.
If we can’t keep them without killing each other then we are just repeating a cycle. But freedom of choice is more important than forcing politics and beliefs on people just so they cooperate. Me nor anyone I know is going to engage in murder just to get my way. I did my part, I have no kids to perpetuate the cycle. Stop providing the machine with fodder and the issue solves itself.
My guy, who do you think shot first?
I’m sorry but if you’re saying when people trying unionize or collectively bargain for better conditions start getting shot at they should just give up or lay down and take it you’re a fool.
There’s no cycle. That’s the whole problem. They made money the most important thing, required for life, then took all the money and sat on it. There’s no cycle. Yesterday they had the money. Today they have the money. Tomorrow they will still have the money unless the people of this world do something about it.
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The ruling class loves it when you say stuff like this bud.
I have watched so many video essays that I read “but Zoe” in the voice of Zoe Bee
But if you use violence against the people who perpetrate violence against everyone who isn’t part of their protected group, you’re just as bad as them. /s
It all depends. For about 97% of the world population, anyone earning more than 40k USD annual salary is part of the 5% elite
I’d wager more than half the population asking for forced takeover enters that range.
So if y’all willing, don’t worry, we third world countries are coming for you. We know you will surrender really easy
This is not how labour relations work
Same vibes as this lil guy:
This is backwards. The working class is giving their power voluntarily to the elite. There is no force needed to get it, just don’t give it away.
What is missing that people keep voting the way they do? There is nobody to hold power if people prefer to give it away.
I’d love to vote for a candidate who represents my views but have never once in my life been presented with anything even close.
How much time are you willing to invest to make such a candidate available?
I am an Anarchist. I don’t think it matters, the Democratic process doesn’t really include the possibility of the outcome of “we should stop doing all this nonsense”.
Why not? You could even force Anarchy on 49% unwilling citizens even though that should be against the spirit of Anarchism.
There’s a little problem about how it’s illegal. Specifically,
. (See: https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/2385) So first i would have to get some non open anarchist into office who would change that law without letting on as to why. Then elect an anarchist candidate proper.
Only problem is, right now if i were to be voting for the candidates most likely to overturn that particular law right now they’re all Republicans. That’s, uh, not a party that represents me at all except for the odd chance the neurons in their brains fire in the right order and they do the thing to make candidates that represent my views allowed to profess their views openly.
There are actually about a hundred other hurdles to jump before we get to that point, but i think “a candidate who represents my views is a choice in an election” is pretty solidly in the “you don’t want to go there” category.
by force or violence
I don’t see that those paragraphs object to democratic change
Of course you cannot expect Republicans to fully represent you.
If you cannot convince 50% to vote for anarchy you won’t have anarchy if you overthrow the state with violence. All the problems you see, they have to be resolved. It will not be easy and can as well be impossible.
https://lemmygrad.ml/post/2139382
A left unity debate.
What do you want the most?
You wanna be the candidate to risk prison time on this one?
Just a casual call to violence 🤣
Self defense. The rich chose violence centuries ago, and continue to choose violence daily.
👌
It could be non-violent. Organizing workers creates a power structure that can be used against the bourgeoisie.
Ahh the old let’s make the call just vague enough for plausible deniability strategy 😉😉
Troll acount
Not at all. My opinion just isn’t welcome here.
Bro your account name and all your dislikes are hints
I mean I said my opinion isn’t welcome here 🤷♂️
Extend your opinion, instead of a stupid sentence ended by a laughing emoji
Nothing to expand 🤷♂️
You just don’t know how to express arguments. Someone who can’t prove anything should shut up.
