• Awoo [she/her]@hexbear.net
    link
    fedilink
    English
    arrow-up
    8
    arrow-down
    2
    ·
    3 months ago

    “fall in line or be purged after the revolution” is not the convincing argument you think it is.

    This is a disingenuous way to read what I’ve said and highlights the point I’m making, YOU are the one making us into enemies.

    At no point did I say this. What I said was that if two sides distrust one another, particularly because one side is declaring the other only temporary alliance but ultimately an enemy, then the other side is left with literally no choice but to see that as a threat. It’s a sincere combative stance. One that forces the other side to react appropriately to being regarded as an enemy.

    I don’t want that position at all. I’ve clearly stated that. I want left unity. I want sincere completely and total friendship.

    You are the one calling the other side the enemy and then complaining when I point out that doing this will cause the other side to take an appropriate position to you when you are openly declaring yourself as a threat.

    The appropriate position to foster the best outcome is complete and total commitment to friendship, trust and love. Any misguided attempt to foster combativeness will result in elements (of both sides) becoming combative, and that combativeness will fester into real world actions, and those real world actions will fester into real world reactions.

    Also note that I’ve never been hostile to y’all

    You are being hostile by declaring us an enemy in this way. Either we make real and concrete commitments to friendship and go forwards with a real and sincere attempt to make it work or it is guaranteed to end in horrible failure in one way or another. The only outcome that has a good possibility is fully committing to making things work together for all of us, and I completely acknowledge that might still fail, but it’s still the only one that has a possible good outcome for all.

    • db0@lemmy.dbzer0.com
      link
      fedilink
      arrow-up
      3
      arrow-down
      2
      ·
      3 months ago

      I disagree, I’m not making you the enemy. I just won’t follow your tactics or your rhetoric. If you think that not doing what you think I should be doing, makes me your enemy, that’s on you.

      We can certainly do make clearly friendly attempt to make it work. Y’all join us in doing anarchist prefiguration and it’s all gravy.

      As strange as it may be, I didn’t come to lemmy predisposed against hexbears, but it was y’all direct actions over the last 3 years that have made me suspicious and cautious against y’all. This should tell you something. You’re not winning hearts and minds with your overall behaviour which is of course counter productive for revolutionary purposes.

      Honestly it really all just sounds terribly vague. “we should all just be friends” can’t be forced. What are the steps you’re taking to nurture such friendship with anarchists like me? Because let me tell you, revisionism about the lessons anarchists learned when allying with MLs and bullying when we speaks against “AES” ain’t it.

      • purpleworm [none/use name]@hexbear.net
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        5
        ·
        3 months ago

        As strange as it may be, I didn’t come to lemmy predisposed against hexbears, but it was y’all direct actions over the last 3 years that have made me suspicious and cautious against y’all. This should tell you something. You’re not winning hearts and minds with your overall behaviour which is of course counter productive for revolutionary purposes.

        I would encourage you not to overgeneralize from your own feelings. One of could rightly apply that first sentence to you, and surely you would see how asinine it would be. There are a number of leftists, including on your instance, who received a hostile introduction to us but who do in fact like us, and many more who at least don’t bear your very obvious animosity (and the same is also held by most of HB regarding most of your users).

        • db0@lemmy.dbzer0.com
          link
          fedilink
          arrow-up
          2
          ·
          3 months ago

          One of could rightly apply that first sentence to you, and surely you would see how asinine it would be.

          Hexbears constantly make such statements, based in uncharitable interpretations, particularly in places like slop and get highly upvoted for it. But my greater point is that if one’s plan is a large leftist umbrella, it’s counter-productive to follow strategies which alienate a lot of anarchists who do in fact share my anti-“left-unity” thoughts.

          And sure, there’s m@tes who don’t get on hexbear shitlist.Typically those tend to be the ones who don’t take as dim view of “left unity” as other anarchists, or who know to keep their thoughts to themselves at least. I just don’t see this inter-instance relationship as overall healthy however.

          • purpleworm [none/use name]@hexbear.net
            link
            fedilink
            English
            arrow-up
            3
            ·
            3 months ago

            This now appears to be a different and much worse argument. The criticism is now that we aren’t winning the hearts and minds of anarchists who specifically reject taking a cooperative approach with MLs prima facie anyway. The only thing for someone like me to do in that position is argue against their position rather than cater to it, there’s no “appealing to the anti-left unity anarchist demographic”.

            It probably isn’t something you find encouraging, but I, like lots of HBs, do think the inter-instance relationship is a good thing. We’ve got lots of people who are comrades on your instance and the others can just block us, so it’s not too big a deal.

            • db0@lemmy.dbzer0.com
              link
              fedilink
              arrow-up
              3
              ·
              3 months ago

              As I wrote elsewhere in here, anarchists like me don’t reject cooperation, we reject being co-opted or used to further ML tactics. That being said, if the plan is to strengthen left unity and/or to convert more people into Marxism, the bullying and “dirtbag left” behaviour typical in hexbear is not conductive. And surely, even people like me who are cautious about ML betrayals, could be led to change their mind through good interactions, no? However in my case at least, the opposite has been the case, I was actually more positive towards MLs, before hexbears attempted to bully me.

              • purpleworm [none/use name]@hexbear.net
                link
                fedilink
                English
                arrow-up
                3
                arrow-down
                1
                ·
                3 months ago

                As I wrote elsewhere in here, anarchists like me don’t reject cooperation, we reject being co-opted or used to further ML tactics.

                Could you provide me a definition of cooperation? Because in my definition, acting in mutual benefit, MLs being helped in their goals by anarchists is a perfectly cooperative thing so long as it is reciprocal.

                That being said, if the plan is to strengthen left unity and/or to convert more people into Marxism, the bullying and “dirtbag left” behaviour typical in hexbear is not conductive. And surely, even people like me who are cautious about ML betrayals, could be led to change their mind through good interactions, no?

                In general, I agree with this and so do some other HBs, and I have been very vocal about this matter (you can go to search, filter for my account and the word “bullying” and see most of it).

                However,

                in my case at least, the opposite has been the case, I was actually more positive towards MLs, before hexbears attempted to bully me.

                I think that this is an unserious complaint because I’ve seen you a) do shit-stirring and b) take indefensible actions in the name of being contrarian to MLs (not just being an anarchist, which is fine, but actually protecting heinous shit) that makes this “I was bullied” routine transparently not reflective of the current reality. Perhaps you were unfairly mistreated years ago, I think that’s very plausible, but at this point you are a participant in shit-flinging and portraying yourself as a perpetual victim is just embarrassing.

                I was an ML (of a different persuasion than most HB MLs) and I’ve been dogpiled by them a few times over the years for various reasons. Do you know what my response was? Was it to throw out everything they had to say on any subject and change my ideological alignment as though political ideology is downstream of personal drama? No, I reflected on this specific issue, “bullying works,” and came to the conclusion that it was a socially backwards approach from an ML standpoint and argued on that basis, and many people ultimately agreed with me! I haven’t been beating that drum as much recently, though I’ve been arguing for rehabilitative justice on basically the same grounds, but perhaps I should continue.

                For the record, if you ever turned over a new leaf, as strongly as I objected to your actions in the past, I would defend you and just as strongly advocate against my fellows holding a grudge against you. I genuinely believe it’s not impossible to repair things, and it should be perfectly possible to have a better truce than the current one even if it might take a bit of time to get enough of the HBs in line. I think everyone would be better off in that circumstance. I don’t follow your instance that much, but if you ever wanted to renegotiate for better relations and demonstrated a reasonable level of sincerity (or wanted to figure out how you could do so), just let me know.

                • db0@lemmy.dbzer0.com
                  link
                  fedilink
                  arrow-up
                  3
                  ·
                  3 months ago

                  I think that this is an unserious complaint because I’ve seen you a) do shit-stirring and b) take indefensible actions in the name of being contrarian to MLs (not just being an anarchist, which is fine, but actually protecting heinous shit)

                  I’d love to see evidence of this. The most “shit-stirring” I’ve done in hexbear comms is call “On Authority” a piece of drivel.

                  Likewise, I’d love to see what you consider “heinous shit”.

                  OTOH, what has happened multiple times is having a 1000+ hexbear pile-on in my own comms for posting anarchist memes. And yes, it started years ago, soon after I joined the threadiverse. My impression of MLs was lowered, and naturally I started acting accordingly for my own mental health. Since that pressure never let up, neither did my defenses.

                  was an ML[…]

                  While I’m glad for you and applaud your patience, it’s an unserious demand to expect this from everyone.

                  For the record, if you ever turned over a new leaf[…]

                  Turned a new leaf from what. What of my behaviour exactly do you find problematic? Even in this thread, I came simply to post a fact, and this is what it turned out. What part of my online behavior is so problematic for you? Because if it’s simply being cautious against MLs, well you realize that leaf cannot be turned on its own.

                  • purpleworm [none/use name]@hexbear.net
                    link
                    fedilink
                    English
                    arrow-up
                    2
                    arrow-down
                    1
                    ·
                    3 months ago

                    The most “shit-stirring” I’ve done in hexbear comms is call “On Authority” a piece of drivel.

                    On HB itself, I mostly agree with your characterization of your own conduct. I don’t have an index of your every interaction committed to memory, but for the handful that I do know I think the worst I really remember you proactively doing on hexbear is whinging about persecution and accusing us of wanting to murder you, etc. What I was actually referring to – to the best of my limited memory – was about the drivel you have been known to occasionally post on your own instance about how we by proxy all want to murder you and the other people on your instance. However, I think this might be the least important thing.

                    Likewise, I’d love to see what you consider “heinous shit”.

                    That shit with _crypt. Genocide denial, saying the Red Army soliders had it coming and should have surrendered when, for most of them, the only opposing armies they could have “surrendered” to would be literal fascists, etc. Granted, I think _crypt is probably just an ignorant child since he showed many times over that he didn’t have even a tenuous grasp on the topic, but I also think it reasonably falls under your responsibility as an admin that when people whoopsie daisy into saying things with horrible implications in the direction of the murder of millions of noncombatants, some action be taken against platforming such a message. As I’ve said elsewhere, that’s something that even many liberals (outside of reddit) would concede is a monstrous position if the person saying it actually understood what he was saying.

                    While I’m glad for you and applaud your patience, it’s an unserious demand to expect this from everyone.

                    Well, two things here:

                    1. My point wasn’t that you should do everything that I did. My point was that you are basically being a contrarian throwing a fit for years on end, letting personal drama dictate your political ideology. There are lots of alternatives that don’t involve taking up the project that I did, mainly centered on simply moving on with your life instead of concerning yourself with a community that you’ve decided isn’t worth engaging with, and understanding that hexbear does not (thank god) possess a monopoly on ML ideology.

                    2. I put the above first because I think it’s the more important message, but I also just don’t like your argument here and I’d like to address it. It is true that expecting everyone to respond as I did would be silly, that’s completely contrary to systemic solutions (and what I was actually talking about was my own effort to produce more of a systemic solution by changing the policy of the site, which I have had a little bit of success in), but I didn’t “demand” anything, and this framing is doing one of my least favorite sleight-of-hand tricks, not that I think you were dishonest there, but it’s a sleight-of-hand nonetheless. I’m not asking about what someone must do, I’m talking about what someone should do. I hate when people take criticism that they should do X and then characterize as though I am trying to say that they are only allowed to do X, as though what I am saying is an attempt to exert authority over them rather than have a discussion on the basis that we both agree that seeking some things we can do are better to do than others. No, you can do whatever the fuck you want, I’m just saying you made a poor choice and have continuously recommitted yourself to that poor choice.

                    Furthermore, while 1) still applies and I don’t think you necessarily should take up the project that I did, you shouldn’t be conflating yourself with “everyone” when you have posed yourself as being serious about revolutionary politics. Why would I talk to you like Joe Schmoe liberal? Wouldn’t that be me being a mean old ML bully who is condescendingly bullying you for being an anarchist? You should have some standards for yourself, and shit-flinging about le tankies is not enough to say you have a serious political attitude. What I am talking about here is how people can, based on being more consistent with their own political ideologies (and not just personal drama contrarianism) seek a better outcome for everyone involved, even if what you should do is not exactly what I did. If that’s too much for you, why are you talking about revolutionary organizing?

                    What part of my online behavior is so problematic for you? Because if it’s simply being cautious against MLs, well you realize that leaf cannot be turned on its own.

                    “Caution” and “antagonism” are not the same thing, but you’re glossing over where I pointed out that it would need to be mutual with HB laying off you and that I would advocate to them on your behalf in the interest of normalizing relations. I’m literally already acknowledging that there is a side here attacking you and they also would need to stop, so it’s silly to just pretend that I’m telling you to unilaterally get in line and take it on the chin. I’m completely serious about this and I’m confident that I could enlist a few other people (who are more respected on HB than I am) to help me make the case to the community. In fact, I think an important element would be discussing with you what you think fair terms are and what other parties think fair terms are and trying to come to an agreement on that basis.

      • Awoo [she/her]@hexbear.net
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        6
        arrow-down
        2
        ·
        3 months ago

        I disagree, I’m not making you the enemy. I just won’t follow your tactics or your rhetoric. If you think that not doing what you think I should be doing, makes me your enemy, that’s on you.

        You can’t be serious.

        If I told you that we’re only temporary allies but I’m not allowing you to have any kind of leadership and I do not regard this as ‘unity’, you would interpret that as me saying when the conditions of our alliance are over that I intend to kill you, you would melodramatically say “like the bolsheviks” or something like that.

        You would interpret it that way for me. I don’t see why you think I shouldn’t interpret it that way when you say it.

        but it was y’all direct actions over the last 3 years that have made me suspicious and cautious against y’all.

        Actions like?

        • db0@lemmy.dbzer0.com
          link
          fedilink
          arrow-up
          3
          ·
          edit-2
          3 months ago

          We’re anarchists. We don’t look for “leadership” in that way. For me only the actions matter. If you performed anarchist praxis and build prefigurative structures I wouldn’t have a reason not to see you as an ally. If you put your effort into capturing state power to wield it over others hierarchically, It would make me suspicious and eventually bring us in direct opposition.

          Actions such as constant bad faith, 1000-comment pile ons, misrepresentation and last but not least, ableism. Hell, in the comment alone, other hexbears can’t help themselves but barge in and leave snarky or malicious comments.

          • Awoo [she/her]@hexbear.net
            link
            fedilink
            English
            arrow-up
            4
            arrow-down
            1
            ·
            3 months ago

            This reply is stretching the limitations of good faith engagement, and my belief that you’re engaging in good faith.

            • db0@lemmy.dbzer0.com
              link
              fedilink
              arrow-up
              3
              ·
              edit-2
              3 months ago

              I’m not sure if you’re talking about my full reply or my 4 word short reply which I sent by mistake because of a misclick

              • Awoo [she/her]@hexbear.net
                link
                fedilink
                English
                arrow-up
                2
                arrow-down
                1
                ·
                3 months ago

                You edited the post 28 minutes after posting and 24 minutes after my reply. It did not take you 28 minutes to write 5 sentences.

                • db0@lemmy.dbzer0.com
                  link
                  fedilink
                  arrow-up
                  3
                  ·
                  3 months ago

                  I edited immediately actually, it took me like 10 minutes to finish writing the reply on the phone. There might be federation delays. FFS the comment I posted originally was even clearly cut off in the middle. How can you be so uncharitable?