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I’m all for Europe doing their own thing. I’m an American and even I hate seeing the US use it’s position for bully politics. No citizen of any other country should ever thing that an American company or govt will treat them with dignity or respect. Look at how we treat each other.
Why do Visa and MasterCard exist? The middleman that jacks up the price while offering the end user nothing? Thanks capitalism.
There was a time back in the day it was useful.
Before smartphones, credit cards were the cashless option.
Now that we all have a more than capable payment terminal in our pocket, Visa and mastercard are obsolete
Sorta. Whomever does payment on your behalf has to be willing to extend credit for an immediate transaction while the very slow process of exchanging money happens at a delay. This is especially so if the transactions are international. I truly wonder how the phone with just an ordinary bank account does this. Is it Google/Apple who extend credit? If so, is that better?
Most other countries don’t have to rely on the antiquated network the US uses for resolving those bank to bank transactions. In South korea, Street vendors have what looks like a phone number posted on signage around their Wares or snacks and people just make effectively debit pushes from their bank to the merchant’s bank in real time with zero margins.
I kind of expect this is how the rest of the world operates and it’s only the us then sits on using its own infrastructure which it made one time, in the 1960s, and has refused to move off of since. This created a lot of the market need for a bunch of private companies to make their own little piggybacking solutions like venmo, zelle, square cash, and all the others.
Too be fair, a lot of major businesses in the US now just exist as financialization institutions extending debt to their large-scale clientele, under the guise of being manufacturing or data services. Like GM. Or Oracle.
I’d suppose the banks work with each other.
uh…NFC payments work through V/M.
They offer credit to losers to spend more than they should. But the credit rates are what used to be usury when the mob did it.
great news
we need more alternatives to Visa and Mastercard.Nice. We have JCB in Japan but I think it piggybacks off VISA/Mastercard for overseas transactions. It’d be cool if it partnered up with a European counterpart for purchases made in the EU.
We have JCB as well but only for digging holes and moving earth.
I suppose I could do that too with my JCB, but it would take ages to get anything done since the card isn’t very big or durable!
if Turkey was able to do it with Troy, why not Europe with Wero? Hope it all goes well
Interesting
Efforts are underway to expand the international e-commerce presence of TROY, which is already widely used and 100% accepted at all retail locations and e-commerce platforms across Turkey.
source Translated with translate.kagi.com
Turkish person here: Troy is not yet that popular, but it is slowly getting there. Give it another 5 years. The best example is probably Brazil’s Pix.
Pix is amazing but it is like an instant bank transfer. One cannot buy on credit through Pix.
That’s not exactly true. You can pay through an existing credit card via Pix (it doesn’t have to be Visa or MasterCard), or pay in instalments via pre-approved credit with the bank.
Probably a good thing. Buying on credit is a very bad way to spiral into crushing debt.
Not the same thing. Every european country already has domestic Troy.
I’m glad to see Visa suffer, but I’m pretty concerned that Wero requires a proprietary phone app. There is no way to shop using Wero without this proprietary software.
It doesn’t require an app. When you pay, you select your bank and it will redirect you to a page that the bank provides. My bank provides a QR-code I can scan with their banking app, but it also offers a log in form to pay.
So I guess it is based on what your bank is willing to provide.
This is based on my experience with ‘iDeal’ the predecessor of wero.
Wero is intregrated into the banking apps we already have. In Germany the banks ING, Volksbank and Sparkasse already implemented it.
That’s just a different proprietary app though.
Are any of those apps FOSS?
Is Wero OpenSource ? Between me & you, I really hope GNU-Taler gets mass adoption they are on version 1.3 I think
what does GNU Taler do exactly? is it just another blockchain-like cryptocurrency scheme? Does it require a traditional bank to provide some kind of API? How does institutional oversight work?
It’s in the website.
Yeah, i was thinking the same thing. Changing one evil for another.
Alas I don’t think the USA will have the political stability to ultimately allow the adoption of an alternative. There is zero point building something that also accommodates the USA right now as the new King is quite likely to ban it and waste all the time put into it. Even a treaty put in place wouldn’t stop this from happening, so frankly its not worth an EU or any other countries company anticipating doing anything with the USA for the foreseeable future.
allow the adoption of an alternative
Why would the EU need an approval from the USA?
USA can use whatever the fuck they want. This is to replace all the transactions happening within the EU.
Having your own transactions system is a big win for the EU, even if no other countries adopt it, and it’s a massive loss for the USA.
Personally, I think having WERO available to Americans would be a good thing for Europe. It aligns the American population more closely to Europe, and if America has a civil war, Europe would have stronger economic ties with the side they favor.
As an American, I certainly wouldn’t mind using WERO. Aside from buying my hentai games without censorship, I would like to keep my money in a safe institution. DOGE broke into America’s social security systems, and exfiltrated data that includes things like bank account numbers. It wouldn’t be surprising if Donald withdraws money from his enemies, without any oversight. Or just orders the banks to do so on his behalf, with ICE in every branch.
Point being, I don’t trust America with my wealth. Europe should use that feeling as a springboard for global spread of the Euro.
I don’t think the USA will have the political stability to ultimately allow the adoption of an alternative.
“Stablecoins” exist and are among the most popular cryptos (1).
the new King is quite likely to ban it
Trump literally has his own stablecoin (2), not to mention other crypto grifts.
At the end of the day capitalism is a grift regardless of the food chips used.
So he’ll probably ban OTHER stablecoins to get a monopoly, and probably have the government sign a 10 years long binding contract with his own business.
Great news. In India we have UPI which already made Mastercard and Visa come to their knees.
Just if it worked with international payments.
Currently, International GPay required a credit/debit card and I am unaware of a proper UPI solution for it.
Also, we lack proper FOSS UPI for Linux despite efforts, due to it being dependent on cellular networks.deleted by creator
For Android, we are pretty close.
For Linux, well, as long as I can get a cellular device that works with Linux [1] I am willing to take up development on the Linux branch of the same project. I have actually been considering this for a while and this is the only blocker I see.
could be either a mobile device (smartphone/tablet) or an USB/PCIe WWAN accessory having a Linux compatible cellular chip that also works viably on mobile devices, so I can do the testing. ↩︎
Costco broke up with VISA so, it’s possible. Re-establish the Templars again as the new money lenders from old.
What Would Jesus Do? Probably burn down banks and most churches.
When was that? I still can’t use my credit cards there unless they are visa
The Costco in Canada I go to only accepts Master Card.
In america they have a partnership with visa and don’t take other cards unless they are debit. Mexico Costco also takes discover and other cards
Discover wants a $25k retainer from me to take them as an option. Its just not realistic for smaller businesses when they have such a small footprint.
They accept cash.
Great if you don’t mind a wallet overflowing with loose change.
Crazy that we don’t have a public sector payment processor, though. You’d think we could have a Generic Card tied to a public bank that handles electronic payments efficiently. But it’s been over 40 years since we began consumer grade electronic transactions and its still entirely within the scope of the private sector.
Don’t you guys have EFTPOS?
Hello fellow Aussie/Kiwi. No, they don’t. Or they kinda do but call it something else and it still usually runs through a middleman rather than a direct bank-to-bank transfer - E.g Visa’s Visa Debit or MasterCard’s Maestro. EFTPOS still doesn’t work online unless using a middleman either, like PayPal or Square.
yeah I know eftpos doesn’t work online but they were discussing in person transactions at costco.
not having eftpos? Eeeeewwwww. Fucking backwards barbarians.
Interac isn’t too bad right? I agree with you that sort of service should be public, but I heard (years ago) that Interac is non-profit.
Edit: I should have just checked before posting: “Interac and Acxsys were combined into a single for-profit organization, Interac Corporation, on 1 February 2018”
Still, talking to vendors, it sounds like the fees are quite low, and I try to pay debit when it’s a small business.
Interac is non-profit.
OpenAI started out as non-profit. Quite a few health insurance companies (Blue Cross Blue Shield, for instance) are organized as non-profits.
shrug
Still, talking to vendors, it sounds like the fees are quite low, and I try to pay debit when it’s a small business.
Sure. All good when it works for you. But this isn’t some kind of wholesale replacement for Visa that doesn’t run the obvious risk of becoming Visa 2.0 (or whatever X.0 iteration of credit card companies we’re currently on).
One of the things I heard Musk say was that it shouldn’t be possible for a non-profit to just be converted into for-profit. Have to agree with him on that.
Nobody ever put change in a wallet.
Hi there I am Nobody.
You want trump in control of our commercial transactions?
He’s appointing the next Fed chair as we speak. We’re a bit past feeling squeamish about what Trump controls.
So then you do understand how having our transactions controlled by the government is a bad thing?
Brazil has a payment system (called Pix, IIRC) that seems to work well, and has survived some… questionable leadership.
I don’t know much about it (maybe a Brazilian can say more about it), but it seems to serve the businesses very well there.
I think the Digital Euro is going to be a better idea long term - taking off the hidden tax of payment processor fees is going to make businesses and people richer.
Don’t you think it has some privacy concerns? And how does it affect small businesses relying on cash? I’m asking genuinely, these are intuitive and not well thought out concerns.
Finally someone is doing something about this. I worked in finans and people wouldn’t believe the amount of money that goes to America because we use EMV and whatever the payment transaction system was called.
I’m all for a European system like this, but the only downside I currently see is that using Wero wouldn’t provide any protection in the same way that a credit card does, unless I missed that on the Wero website.
Give me the consumer protection of a credit card and I’ll sign up to Wero or whoever!
Does Visa/Mastercard actually offer any protection themselves? When I’ve had to reverse debit card transactions due to fraud or otherwise, I always just called/reached out to my bank and they did it. I never communicated with Visa/MC. Since this system is pretty much SEPA in a trench coat, I’m pretty sure the same would work here.
Yes they do offer actual protections.
A debit card while using visas processing network is still your banks account and their responsibility. And it’s your personal money. Unlike a credit card which is NOT your money and not your sole liability. You are jointly liable with a credit card and solely liable with a debit card.
A credit card the account is with visa, tho it may be managed by your bank thanks to partnerships and bank end integration. Depending on the circumstances you actually will be directed by your bank to contact visa or who ever directly or be forwarded by your bank.
Debit cards are not credit cards. This seems to be a weird hang up people can’t seem to understand. Doubly so when they are from Europe. It’s always struck me as odd.
Yeah - that’s why I always use credit if I can. If someone steals my credit card, I’m protected. The money doesn’t even leave my account, so I don’t have to worry about losing access to my funds for a few days while everything is worked out.
Aha, interesting. I never had a credit card because it would be too stressful for me to take out micro-loans for stuff. Still weird that it’s visa/MC money and not your bank’s though.
A credit card the account is with visa, tho it may be managed by your bank thanks to partnerships and bank end integration. Depending on the circumstances you actually will be directed by your bank to contact visa or who ever directly or be forwarded by your bank.
Do you have a source on this? Because it directly contradicts EVERYTHING I have ever experienced. Visa is a payment processor, but more as a middleman. I’ve even been redirected (through automated systems) back to my bank when making a purchase using a Visa card. Any disputes are handled by bank. You can’t get a Visa card without going through a bank. My debit card has a MC logo and can be used as such, but it’s also my ATM card.
Your point about debit vs credit is valid, though possibly more convoluted than needed. On credit, it’s someone else’s money in limbo, until the bill is paid.
Visa/Mastercard requires all cardholders, cardholders’ banks, merchants, and merchants’ processors to follow the comprehensive set of rules for disputed transactions. That way the dispute process tends to be uniform across different banks and across different merchant/payment processors.
The network sets the rules, while the banks implement those rules on behalf of the cardholder and the processor implements those rules on behalf of the merchant.
So replacing the network will require a comprehensive replacement for the network’s dispute resolution rules (assigning who is responsible for paying when certain things happens) and procedures (how a cardholder can initiate a dispute and how that gets resolved).
As far as they writes the rules, no thanks
Ok, so this makes the most sense to me. This would indeed need to be handled, I think the best solution is for EU to come up with a set of dispute resolution procedures and pass it as a law for everyone to follow. That way, disputes would be resolved the same way regardless of what network or bank you are using, which sounds the most reasonable to me.
That’s a very good point - it isn’t Mastercard or Visa involved in the card protection. Thank you!
So I guess I’m actually saying: if Wemo offer credit, then count me in!
what protection credit card provide?
In the UK the credit card company are joint liable for any purchases over £100.
So if I buy X from company Y for £100, and company Y fails to deliver, or goes into administration, or whatever, I go back to the credit card company and get my £100 back. Or looked at another way, I don’t pay them the £100 and they swallow the cost.
didn’t know that thanks
You’ve never used cash?
I read that there also are lots of concerns regarding privacy of data. It apparently collects lots of your data and interactions and shares it with third parties for publicity and so. And they’re not transparent at all on this point.
What’s the point of having a European app if it behaves worst than GAFAM?
Anyway, I don’t know how much is rumour, how much is true. Does anybody have more information?
I can’t imagine that they could be worst than the existing VISA and MasterCard duopoly.
If it’s onshore then it would be possible to regulate. If it’s overseas then I imagine it would be harder to regulate without kicking visa and MC out of the EU and then we would need to start over anyway.
Europe’s $24 Trillion
Great, now nobody knows how much that is (other than a lot).
100K is a lot. 24T is unfathomable. :)
It’s transactions at the scale of a continent rather than a household or a business. Hardly unfathomable. Just bigger.
Yeah, but long scale unfathomable, or short scale unfathomable?
Idk count to a trillion and check.
I could make a tally stick worth 24 trillion dollars EZ. Seems pretty fathomable to me.
How to make this competitive vs. current, American owned networks?
Put a microtax in every financial transaction going out of the EU.
Is there any way to use wero without handing out my mobile phone number to everyone? I’d prefer handing over IBAN or some alias over phone number.
Wero is basically just SEPA real time transactions under the hood, so you can just use your bank app to transfer via IBAN.
that means it’s almost useless then, because SEPA offers absolutely zero fraud protection. Once you sent the money, it’s impossible to get it back even if you contact the bank 1 second later.
Exception: some hacker did some social engineering and posing as the ministry of defense, persuaded one of the richest men in italy to send him a bribe via SEPA. In that case the banks were able to reverse it one week after. Normal people instead gets only a FUCK YOU.
Just as long as I don’t have to carry a bunch of CCs because I don’t know what store takes what. Then they will all have different policies, security issues, fraud protection will vary, etc.
