Rumours, speculation and hearsay? “Interesting” at least.
Keep it on-topic. This is not the place for flamewars about exactly how bad China’s human rights abuses are.
Not a chance. It’s one of only two properties Hasbro has that makes any money at all.
Edit: not to mention that the article only refers to “DND” which is only used colloquially and never by the company itself. It’s either D&D or Dungeons (and|&) Dragons
It could be that Hadbro only licence the “video game” part or all dynamic electronic content (beyond, vtts etc). But I’m not sure how much of a cash influx that would give Hasbro.
BG3 literally is the reason they make a Profit last year.
Yeah, but what about this quarter?
Fuck, ain’t that the truth?
Does D&D make them a lot of money, though? I know the movie did well and licensing fees gained from BG3 must be pretty good, but those aren’t really the norm exactly. WoTC makes good money as a whole but I honestly figured that was mostly MTG, cardboard and ink is dirt cheap compared to how much a booster pack costs lmao
Actually I believe the movie did pretty badly. It was reviewed fairly well by critics and fans who actually went to go see it, but unfortunately it was squeezed between a couple of other popular IP’s at the time (I think it was John Wick and the Mario movie). But hopefully it helped them with streaming or something.
I think I ended up watching it on Paramount+ in the hopes that it’ll encourage them to make more in the future. Plus it was wholesome enough I thought it might be able to go into my comfort movie rotation with Princess Bride and Stardust. (Although now that I think about it, I should just buy a physical copy.)
it was squeezed between a couple of other popular IP’s at the time
That, plus coming immediately after the whole licencing debacle. Many have speculated that part of the reason they were so quick (in the end) to capitulate and throw out the Creative Commons licence as haphazardly as they did is that they wanted to get fans back onside so they wouldn’t boycott or review bomb the movie.
I would have seen it by now if Hasbro had not made me viscerally hate the idea of supporting them in any way.
That’s fair. I was going to not see it but they reversed so hard on the OGL thing I decided to reward them with my $15 lol.
Yeah, I’d have ended my boycott of Hasbro after they backed down had they not immediately sent armed, hired mercinaries to threaten, harass, and bully an MTG player over an order mixup that was the seller’s fault. That happened so soon after they backed down on the whole OGL 1.1 thing. I genuinely thought Hasbro learned a lesson with the OGL backlash, but this Pinkerton thing made it clear they hadn’t.
The most valuable thing about D&D is the brand. So if there’s one thing they definitely wouldn’t sell, it would be the IP.
Hollywood accounting is weird as fuck, but the general ballpark is that a movie needs to make double its budget at the box office to break even.
On a budget of $150 million, D&D made $93.3 million in the United States and Canada, and $114.9 million in the rest of the world, for a worldwide total of $208.2 million.
Now, because of the complicated relationship between WotC/Hasbro and Paramount, some have speculated these numbers may not be as dire as they would be in an original IP. And of course the home viewing market is a huge part of the equation these days. So it’s entirely possible the film did break even or even make a small profit. But sadly, it was not a commercial success.
Which is a shame, because it was so good. As a fantasy movie fan. As a D&D fan. And even as a Forgotten Realms fan.
“DND”, interestingly, is also how Dungeons & Dragons is referred to in Chinese translations and references. (Because the actual translation of the name itself sounds stupid.)
It’s one of only two properties Hasbro has that makes any money at all.
How comes that Hasbro can make money with D&D ? We know that most of the RPG end-up costing money to their author or bringing them a revenue way under the hourly minimal wage. I know D&D is big and expensive compared to other RPG, so hopefully they bring money. But basically with the 3 base books, you have a few 100 hours of play for 5 persons. So doesn’t look like a good investment for a large company.
I mean, yes there is Baldur’s gate and the movie. but looks like the kind of IP which can be worth nothing in a decade if you don’t keep the game alive
You wouldn’t think DnD would be that expensive to make. It’s just printing books with a couple game designer authors and game testers involved. But selling books also doesn’t make much money.
I think the trick to making money is definitely the licensing. It’s an IP everyone’s knows and lots of nerds love. Whenever someone doesn’t know what to buy me for a birthday or Christmas present they get me some DnD crap and honestly, I usually appreciate it lol. I love my dumb DnD dice ice tray, pajama pants, cool looking minis I pretend I’ll one day paint, or beholder waffle iron. It’s stupid shit I’ll never buy myself but makes a good gift. A good VTT will also help and I know they’re working on that, but software devs are expensive so that feels like more of a gamble. Especially if it only works DnD 5e while the others in the market can work with any game.
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Maybe Hasbro is finally realizing that they never understood why D&D is valuable, and are coming to the conclusion that they’ll never be able to monetize it properly.
With seemingly-comparable game franchises, a lot of the value is in either a business model that’s good at generating consistent sales (selling cards or miniatures) and/or the setting and characters that can be used to sell merchandise. D&D has neither. No one really cares that much about the D&D lore, and the business model is selling books that aren’t even that necessary to play the game.
The value in the D&D franchise is that the game mechanics (which aren’t protected by IP laws) are well-known by a large user base, plus there’s a lot of existing material that is compatible with that system. People play D&D because lots of people already know how to play, and it’s easy to find material to play with. Stuff like Baldur’s Gate is popular incidentally, mostly because the developers have been good at making games, but no one is going to get excited about a mediocre D&D game in the same way that people would for a 40k game.
Hasbro has shown that they don’t understand this dynamic. When they tried to monetize the game system itself with the OGL nonsense, people just said “Okay, I guess I’ll just switch to a different RPG system” because of course that’s what you’d do. The community is interested in the hobby, not the franchise, and if the franchise is going to make it difficult to engage with the hobby, then the hobbyists, including content creators who do a lot of the heavy lifting to keep the franchise relevant, will go elsewhere.
Hasbro likely thought they could take D&D and do the usual “we have this user base and we can get X amount from merch, Y amount from video games, Z amount from some sort of subscription service, etc.” not realizing that no one actually cares that much about D&D as a franchise, at least not in the same way as with stuff like Warhammer or Star Wars. It’s a hobbyists hobby, and the hobbyists aren’t going to go full “consooom!” on D&D lunchboxes and funko pops.
TTRPGs are, to their credit, extremely difficult to monetize. It’s hard to squeeze money out of a game when the players can buy a couple of PDFs and then play for years, only buying new material when there’s an update or a setting book that looks interesting to them. It’s a bad business, which makes it a terrific hobby, and I wish Hasbro a very lmao get owned if they do try to pass it along to someone else.
No one really cares that much about the D&D lore
You uh … might want to walk that back a little before they show up.
The keyword here is the. Lots of folks care about D&D lore, but the official cannon is not sacred. It’s nice to have, but it’s a starting point, a framework, an inspiration.
No, they’re right. The Forgotten Realms novels have been incredibly popular for decades. Sure they might not be pulling in Brandon Sanderson money, but they were absolutely popular in their own right and were profitable until WotC unceremoniously decided to shut them down right at their peak so soon after the Second Sundering.
So excited for DnD fans to get even more racist
Hasbro has no clue what to do with the game since their games-as-service, closed ecosystem plan went kaput after they backed down on the OGL revision (which would have been necessary to shut out other VTTs and ensure player & DM subscriptions). I think the recent lay offs of senior people in the D&D related teams suggests this as well. This article doesn’t seem well sourced at all, but a shake-up would be very interesting at this point.
Side-stepping some of the speculation and impact on the traditional market/fanbase, I am curious about the interest in D&D in China, as a Tencent acquisition would presumably make it much easier to market the game there. From the searching I’ve done, there doesn’t seem to be a ton of interest in D&D, and there’s no official translation into Mandarin. The movie didn’t do great at the Chinese box office, although Baldur’s Gate 3 did fine? Obviously, if Tencent does put together a subsidiary to design a version for the Chinese market, I’m not sure if they’d want to start by translating/adapting existing books or using the ruleset to design a bespoke version (either with a fantasy setting or based on relevant Chinese IP.)
I was in China for two years and not once ever found anything related to actual role playing games ever. Anywhere. And I really looked. There is a market there, waiting to be created, and I’m not surprised one bit that Tencent would be interested in that. But as other people have mentioned, monetizing that stuff is gonna be a challenge. I sure am looking forward to it, though. Especially once I get good enough at Chinese. I dream of the day I have a level strong enough to help translating games there…
You didn’t look hard enough. It’s ALL OVER TAOBAO.
Perhaps you didn’t look in the right places?
Here’s a search for “DND”. (I ran the search through Google Translate for you.)
Here’s a search for “克苏鲁” (Cthulhu). (Again with the Google Translate.)
Here’s a search for “TRPG”. (Google Translate again!)
So if you really looked, you might have tried instead really looking where people actually go to buy these things. Different country, different customs, different ways of doing things.
edited to fix up images that my screen capture tool screwed up
Haha, I may have exaggerated a bit for effect ;) I was on Taobao and found myself some reliable suppliers of dice and minis, which made sense since China produces everything for the rest of the world. I found some board games imports. There were a good few card games, too. But i dont recall finding any RPG boss in Chinese. This is very cool! I ended up finding gaming partners through the grapevine, but even they had difficulty finding suppliers and confirmed my suspicion that the hobby is still tiny. Nobody has any idea when I asked about rpg, boardgames, etc. Apart from a few card games board games. I found one gaming shop in the whole of Wuhan and it turns out it was a mini shop (again, no surprise when the manufacturing is all made in China). Anyway, it was 8 years ago, so it’s no surprise things have changed. They do tend to do so very quickly, over there. Seeing translated versions is super encouraging! Thanks for taking the time, though.
Ah, yes, 8 years ago things would have been harder. (And I know the shop you mean in Wuhan for that time frame, I think. Mostly Warhammer 40K and a smattering of imported card and board games?)
Call of Cthulhu is the giant here, though D&D/Pathfinder is a pretty close second. Fate, of all things, is a decently close third as well, and going up. (There’s Chinese-native Fate modules and campaign/setting packs popping up all over the place now, along with some native CofC stuff. Native D&D stuff is rarer.) Make no mistake it’s still a fringe hobby with loads of room for growth, but it is no longer unheard of. Most people now have at least heard of it, even if they don’t know exactly what it is.
Dude if you actually know a gaming shop in Wuhan, I’m interested! I’m going for a few weeks in April and it would be just fantastic to go to a real gaming shop :) The one I found was mostly military modeling, with a mezzanine where people were, I guess, painting (I didn’t dare go up, my level of Chinese was abysmal at the time). And yeah, I noticed Cthulhu in your screenshots. I’m not totally surprised to see it, though. It’s been I the top 3 in France for the last thirty years. Fate is definitely a surprise, though! I guess it all depends on who the “evangelists” are. I’m so getting a copy in Chinese when I get there, hahaha!
Fate was crowd-funded for translation on Modian. They wanted 50,000 RMB for the main rule book’s translation. They got so much money (215,930.76 RMB) that they wound up translating everything Evil Hat had published for Fate up to that point.
Since then Fate has been a juggernaut here.
edited to add
If you run that page through Google Translate and scroll to the bottom, you can see an explanation for why D&D isn’t as much a juggernaut as it is in North America. I’ll quote the relevant bit:
Every time [our American friend Scott] came to JOYPIE, he would bring us a game as a gift and actively encourage us to participate in the DND games hosted by him. I tried to participate out of curiosity and for the purpose of practicing English speaking. In order to facilitate learning and operation, I decided to choose a big “double player” [probably dual-class? — ed.] - Priest profession, and selected dwarves based on racial characteristics. However, after several group experiences, I decided to give up. The reason was not the communication problem in English, but that I felt that our minds were not in the same picture at all.。
Scott and I had a candid exchange about this embarrassing experience. We both believed that it was because the fantasy background of DND was too strong. For people like me who have little in-depth understanding of the background of Western fantasy worlds, there is no way. You can do role-playing with just your imagination. From a cultural perspective, it is the cultural differences between East and West.
One of the things that always seems to come as a surprise to people trying to sell into other cultures is that, well, they’re other cultures. What might be thought of as “common tropes” in North American and European cultures may just be bewildering nonsense to others. (Like as he goes on to talk about after that snippet above, dragons here are WILDLY different than dragons in the west.) D&D is steeped heavily in western mythology and is going to feel too alien. A generic game like Fate will do better until homegrown games start popping up.
(He also takes a bit of a snipe against how D&D players tend to play the game like it’s a wargame, but I’m not certain I agree with him there; I mean yes the tendency is there, but … his rant looked a bit like BadWrongFun™ which I’m opposed to as a concept.)
You’ve no idea how exciting it is to read all this! This is the kind of convo I was desperately trying to find, to no avail, while there. I’m gonna have to parse through that page and see if I can find a few keywords to hook on for future reference. At least I know what I’m gonna look for when I get there in April, haha! Thank you so much for taking the time to show all this! :)
Larian Studios (30% owned by Tencent) was attempting to buy D&D. They weren’t able to afford it, and to they pulled Tencent into the negotiation. I don’t know if that means Hasbro actually is interested in selling - though it’s hard to see a world where they’re not. https://massivelyop.com/2024/01/31/hasbro-is-selling-the-dungeons-and-dragons-ip-and-tencent-is-the-potential-buyer/
However, Wizards of the Coast is saying that they don’t intend to sell, as of an hour ago: https://www.pcgamer.com/wizards-of-the-coast-dispels-rumours-that-tencent-wants-to-gobble-up-dandd-like-a-tarrasque-to-be-clear-we-are-not-looking-to-sell-our-dandd-ip/
OP, could you please do the responsible thing and update the title and body of this post with a disclaimer that Hasbro has outright denied these rumours. They were clearly baseless from the beginning, but I’m glad to see them make an official statement to get out in front of it.
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In Tencent’s favor I haven’t really heard about them mismanaging properies or being too heavyhanded when it comes to squeezing out profitability.
Do I want DnD to be owned and controlled by another multinational holding company? No. Will it matter to me? Not really. But I do enjoy the drama.
Yeah, at best it’ll be acquired by a company that won’t totally enshittify it, whoever that is. It’s a big enough game that some form of enshittification is inevitable, though.
Tencent is going to release Dark Souls 4
They can and their existing track record suggests they will be worse than Hasbro.
@Kbin_space_program @tissek @LaGG_3 elaborate
Tencent has a horrid reputation for microtransactions and being overbearing in China.
And they’re accustomed to microtransactions there, so you can imagine how bad it is for them to complain about it.
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@Attaxalotl @robinn_IV lol some westerners are super brainwashed. Seriously. How pathetic.
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Honestly? This doesn’t necessarily sound like a bad thing. Hasbro has been fucking up DND left and right because they simply don’t understand it. At the same time, it’s a valuable IP with quite a bit of potential in the right hands, and they haven’t killed is through mismanagement yet or even close to. If they sell it for a fair value to someone who won’t fuck it up, and use that money to specialize in some things they know what to do with, then it could be win-win for the business guys and for the players.
(Of course the question of what they could specialize in that they do know how to make money with is a whole different elephant in the room.)
(Edit: And yes, the chance that Tencent will find a way to ruin it in the name of microtransactions income, and just do a more competent job with that than Hasbro has, is a pretty good one.)
Yes because a Chinese multinational corporation is going to any better…
Micro transactions, battle pass, dlc
The Terrible Three
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So like dndbeyond?
Yes, but if you don’t log 8 hours with 2 other paying Campaign Pro players that week, you won’t get your content unlock.
Not every big conglomerate is just a relentless fuckup machine. Baldur’s Gate 3 was made by (edit:
a Tencent subsidiary) a studio partly owned by Tencent. I’m not saying they won’t fuck it up, just that there’s no reason to assume out of the gate that they automatically will. And, it’s legitimately a little hard to see them doing worse than Hasbro has been so far.Tencent has a minority stake in Larian. That’s very different from being wholly owned and managed by them.
And Tencent has a minority stake in, like, every functioning software company that’s ever done an investment funding around at this point. They make it a point to diversify their holdings across basically the entire software industry at this point.
They’re fairly hands-off in those endeavours, since they’re doing it to protect themselves against shifts in the market.
Their in-house made stuff, though, is… Well, let’s just say it’s efficiently monetized.
Not every big conglomerate is just a relentless fuckup machine
Do you have any examples?
I mean, just a quick glance at this list shows some things that seem at least competently managed. They’re not a relentless crew of counterproductive own-dick-trippers-over like Hasbro.
That said, the point that they may turn it into a microtransactions bonanza that makes them money but in no way resembles what DND should be is a pretty good one, yes. I was envisioning this future where they realize that the way to make money with it long-term is to just let it be its own thing, but I think there’s a pretty good chance that that idea is as absurd as everyone here seems to think it is.
Most of those are just minority investments rather than directly ran by Tencent
Hm, you are right. The story described it as “owns and has huge holdings,” but that is wrong – for Blizzard it’s 10%, Bluehole 5%, etc.
Tencent owns
3%30% of Larian shares. This does not make them a subsidiary, or fully owned.It’s 30%. The point is pretty valid though, and I did have it wrong in saying subsidiary – I edited my comment to reflect my learning.
Yah, my fat thumb dropped the zero. Oops.
Found the person that has never heard of TenCent before.
Most of my knowledge of them comes from this video which I found to be pretty in-depth for a clickbaity Youtube watch. But yes, I’ve heard of them.
I notice that the culture here is that everyone’s an expert on everything, surrounded by people who need to be enlightened by their knowledge. I feel out of place, I’m the only one who’s not that, I guess.
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You seem nice
Moving to an even larger company that has less experience with physical “fun” products isn’t likely to be good for the core game. D&D is already at odds with the hardcore community despite the success of the movie and BG3.They don’t need more licensed content, they need to rethink their creative process and how they interact with the core tabletop community. I just don’t see how Tencent is the place for that.
Tencent will microtransaction the hell out of it.
They are the worst thing in the gaming industry and absolutely need to be taken out back and legislataively shot.
Hasbro selling it is in theory not a bad thing. Them selling it to Tencent is an awful idea.
Yeah, probably so. The people in this thread convinced me.
Yeah but ten cent?
Yes, it is a bad thing. D&D needs to be back in the hands of a responsible company and steward, and neither Hasbro nor Tencent are it.
