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For me, offense is in the listeners mind. Words are simply words. Taking offense to such things is a personal choice. You can choose to be offended or not.
So the N-word is not offensive? Do you use it freely?
No. Obviously, as I stated later in my post, I refrain from using words that are taken as offensive in an effort to make my fellow humans more comfortable. I personally don’t have any issue with any word. I refuse to allow someone to have that much control over my emotional state by using a word.
I don’t understand why anyone would want to give someone else control over their person simply because they’re an ignorant bigot who has no issue using such a word in an offensive way.
I do my best to give all of my fellow people (friends, co-workers and even strangers) respect. At least enough respect not to stoop to simple character attacks using historically demeaning language. If I have a problem with someone, that shouldn’t imply that they are somehow less than me, they are simply the center point of the issue I’m having, and I shouldn’t resort to trying to insult them based on something as trivial as their race, culture, religion, creed, or anything else that’s so generalized.
It reminds me of the xkcd comic about double standards: in the first pane it shows two people, presumably men, both standing at a blackboard or similar doing math, and the first is saying to the second “wow, you suck at math”. In the second pane, it’s presumably a man and a woman in the exact same scenario, but in this case, the man is saying to the woman “wow, women suck at math”.
The difference is clear: in the first scenario, they’re addressing the individual, in the second, they’re referring to an entire group based on a single characteristic of that individual. That kind of broad generalization of an individual based on a single factor, whether it is race, gender, religion, etc… Is the core of the issue for me. If I have an issue with someone, or even multiple someone’s of a particular race, gender, class, etc… I make active efforts to not make judgements of all people of that particular race/gender/whatever, based on this small sample.
I’ve had friends of various races, gender identities, religions, etc, who are very rational, intelligent, good natured, etc. I’ve also known people of pretty much every class, gender, race, religion, etc, who are utterly infuriating or annoying to no end for various reasons. For me, it’s not a reflection on that race/gender/whatever, but rather a reflection on that individual. While they may be a particular gender, race, religion, etc… They do not represent every person who is in that race/religion/gender/etc. I’ve noticed there are trends in behavior among people of similar cultures… Where a culture is usually consisting of people with similar race, National origin, religion, etc, but those trends do not and cannot inform my judgement of a person. Many races, religions, etc, belong to multiple cultures, and there are many examples of people from every culture that do not have the same ideologies, religion, or even personality traits, of their root culture, so again, this does not and cannot inform my thoughts about any one individual.
While similarities exist between people of similar or the same culture, each individual is, and must be, treated as an individual because every other system of determining the treatment of an individual, either socially or personally, is incomplete at best, and wildly inaccurate at worst.
Bringing it back to the point. I have no personal issue with any word that may or may not be considered offensive, either to me or others. Taking offense is an entirely personal matter wholly existing in the mind of the listener. As a matter of respect for my fellow person, I refrain from uttering such words that may cause unintentional offense to people as a matter of respect for those people. Furthermore, I respect all individuals I interact with at least enough to not desire to cause offense, especially regarding traits they cannot otherwise change, such as national heritage, race, gender, etc.
I would not personally have any issues using words that are currently considered offensive, if the groups that could be offended by those words were to stand up and say that the word will not be taken offensively.
The N-word specifically, appears to have it’s etymology rooted in Spanish, where the word for the color black is literally “Negro”. I feel that the word is a bastardized anglo mishearing of Negro, by slave owners, back when that was a thing; and as such, it has become inexorably tied to the concept of owning people, meanwhile the dictionary defines the N-word as literally a dark-skinned person (and correctly notes that it is a contemptuous term for such a person).
Words change meaning over time, as I’m sure the N-word first appeared in the dictionary as a dark skinned slave or something equally dehumanizing. The term has already evolved to simply be a dark-skinned person (contemptuous), and may evolve further to any number of potential future definitions.
If such a time arises that the word is no longer seen as offensive to the dark-skinned community, regardless of the speaker, then I would have no problem using the term in whatever context is appropriate for the new definition. If that context is that it should never be used, as it is now, then I will never use it. Full stop.
I have to much respect for people of all races, to use terms which would demean any race.
I still don’t have a problem with it personally. I am also not a dark-skinned person. I maintain that my fellow humans should not allow the utterance of such a word to have any sway on their emotions. Don’t give someone else control over you because they don’t respect you enough that they’ll use such offensive words. Don’t give them that control. They’re worthless humans.
I would not personally have any issues using words that are currently considered offensive, if the groups that could be offended by those words were to stand up and say that the word will not be taken offensively.
Sorry… you want the intellectually disabled to explain why something you say upsets them?
You do understand the concept of intellectual disability, right?
Of course I do. These statements are more broadly applicable. Specifically in the context of that reply, I was being asked about the “N-word”.
Additionally, it’s rather judgemental of you to assume that the intellectually disabled are incapable of enough comprehension that they can understand when something has offended them.
People who fit the description of intellectual disability are wildly varied in what constitutes their disability. Sure, some of them are nonverbal, some may be in a borderline vegetative state. Those are extremes and shouldn’t imply that all people with intellectual disabilities are incapable of understanding or verbalizing their feelings.
Bluntly, if someone is so intellectually disabled that they are unable to express, in some way, shape, or form, that a statement has either offended them, or that a statement does not offend them, then I would argue that the probability that they understand the potentially offensive statement well enough to have an opinion on it, is extremely remote. Thus, their opinion, which cannot be ascertained either way, is not relevant to the discussion.
What’s amazing to me is that you seem to be trying so very hard to find flaws in my argument and get me upset or something, and yet, even as I’m writing this, and recognizing that your statements are most likely just an attempt to troll me… I am stoic and entirely calm.
Think what you will of me. I could not possibly care any less than I already do. This entire discussion has been cathartic. I rarely get to voice my opinions on such things, since those that know me already know what my opinions are on this topic; most of the general population won’t sit and listen to a reasonable argument or have a productive discussion on such “hot button” topics.
So I want to say thank you for the discussion. I truly appreciate the opportunity to re-examine the issue. So far, I have heard no compelling argument to change my outlook or opinion on this issue, and I sincerely hope that at some point someone will read this and realize that they’re giving someone power over them with words, and change how they see such offensive language. If even one person has that moment of realization, then all the effort and time I’ve spent talking about this, has been time well spent.
I hope you, and everyone who reads this, now or in the future, have a very pleasant day.
Additionally, it’s rather judgemental of you to assume that the intellectually disabled are incapable of enough comprehension that they can understand when something has offended them.
I’m not assuming that at all. You’re assuming the ones who are capable enough haven’t stood up and said to stop using that word.
The statements in context are referring to a potential future time when they say that it’s not offensive. I made no statements about what has, or has not been said currently by those groups. I only acknowledged that currently the word is considered offensive.
I recognized in my original reply that the wording of the picture in the OP is problematic. Though it carries a decent enough message, the wording would be considered offensive by today’s standards.
So the N-word is not offensive? Do you use it freely?
No. Obviously, as I stated later in my post, I refrain from using words that are taken as offensive in an effort to make my fellow humans more comfortable. I personally don’t have any issue with any word. I refuse to allow someone to have that much control over my emotional state by using a word.
I don’t understand why anyone would want to give someone else control over their person simply because they’re an ignorant bigot who has no issue using such a word in an offensive way.
I do my best to give all of my fellow people (friends, co-workers and even strangers) respect. At least enough respect not to stoop to simple character attacks using historically demeaning language. If I have a problem with someone, that shouldn’t imply that they are somehow less than me, they are simply the center point of the issue I’m having, and I shouldn’t resort to trying to insult them based on something as trivial as their race, culture, religion, creed, or anything else that’s so generalized.
It reminds me of the xkcd comic about double standards: in the first pane it shows two people, presumably men, both standing at a blackboard or similar doing math, and the first is saying to the second “wow, you suck at math”. In the second pane, it’s presumably a man and a woman in the exact same scenario, but in this case, the man is saying to the woman “wow, women suck at math”.
The difference is clear: in the first scenario, they’re addressing the individual, in the second, they’re referring to an entire group based on a single characteristic of that individual. That kind of broad generalization of an individual based on a single factor, whether it is race, gender, religion, etc… Is the core of the issue for me. If I have an issue with someone, or even multiple someone’s of a particular race, gender, class, etc… I make active efforts to not make judgements of all people of that particular race/gender/whatever, based on this small sample.
I’ve had friends of various races, gender identities, religions, etc, who are very rational, intelligent, good natured, etc. I’ve also known people of pretty much every class, gender, race, religion, etc, who are utterly infuriating or annoying to no end for various reasons. For me, it’s not a reflection on that race/gender/whatever, but rather a reflection on that individual. While they may be a particular gender, race, religion, etc… They do not represent every person who is in that race/religion/gender/etc. I’ve noticed there are trends in behavior among people of similar cultures… Where a culture is usually consisting of people with similar race, National origin, religion, etc, but those trends do not and cannot inform my judgement of a person. Many races, religions, etc, belong to multiple cultures, and there are many examples of people from every culture that do not have the same ideologies, religion, or even personality traits, of their root culture, so again, this does not and cannot inform my thoughts about any one individual.
While similarities exist between people of similar or the same culture, each individual is, and must be, treated as an individual because every other system of determining the treatment of an individual, either socially or personally, is incomplete at best, and wildly inaccurate at worst.
Bringing it back to the point. I have no personal issue with any word that may or may not be considered offensive, either to me or others. Taking offense is an entirely personal matter wholly existing in the mind of the listener. As a matter of respect for my fellow person, I refrain from uttering such words that may cause unintentional offense to people as a matter of respect for those people. Furthermore, I respect all individuals I interact with at least enough to not desire to cause offense, especially regarding traits they cannot otherwise change, such as national heritage, race, gender, etc.
I would not personally have any issues using words that are currently considered offensive, if the groups that could be offended by those words were to stand up and say that the word will not be taken offensively.
The N-word specifically, appears to have it’s etymology rooted in Spanish, where the word for the color black is literally “Negro”. I feel that the word is a bastardized anglo mishearing of Negro, by slave owners, back when that was a thing; and as such, it has become inexorably tied to the concept of owning people, meanwhile the dictionary defines the N-word as literally a dark-skinned person (and correctly notes that it is a contemptuous term for such a person).
Words change meaning over time, as I’m sure the N-word first appeared in the dictionary as a dark skinned slave or something equally dehumanizing. The term has already evolved to simply be a dark-skinned person (contemptuous), and may evolve further to any number of potential future definitions.
If such a time arises that the word is no longer seen as offensive to the dark-skinned community, regardless of the speaker, then I would have no problem using the term in whatever context is appropriate for the new definition. If that context is that it should never be used, as it is now, then I will never use it. Full stop.
I have to much respect for people of all races, to use terms which would demean any race.
I still don’t have a problem with it personally. I am also not a dark-skinned person. I maintain that my fellow humans should not allow the utterance of such a word to have any sway on their emotions. Don’t give someone else control over you because they don’t respect you enough that they’ll use such offensive words. Don’t give them that control. They’re worthless humans.
Sorry… you want the intellectually disabled to explain why something you say upsets them?
You do understand the concept of intellectual disability, right?
Of course I do. These statements are more broadly applicable. Specifically in the context of that reply, I was being asked about the “N-word”.
Additionally, it’s rather judgemental of you to assume that the intellectually disabled are incapable of enough comprehension that they can understand when something has offended them.
People who fit the description of intellectual disability are wildly varied in what constitutes their disability. Sure, some of them are nonverbal, some may be in a borderline vegetative state. Those are extremes and shouldn’t imply that all people with intellectual disabilities are incapable of understanding or verbalizing their feelings.
Bluntly, if someone is so intellectually disabled that they are unable to express, in some way, shape, or form, that a statement has either offended them, or that a statement does not offend them, then I would argue that the probability that they understand the potentially offensive statement well enough to have an opinion on it, is extremely remote. Thus, their opinion, which cannot be ascertained either way, is not relevant to the discussion.
What’s amazing to me is that you seem to be trying so very hard to find flaws in my argument and get me upset or something, and yet, even as I’m writing this, and recognizing that your statements are most likely just an attempt to troll me… I am stoic and entirely calm.
Think what you will of me. I could not possibly care any less than I already do. This entire discussion has been cathartic. I rarely get to voice my opinions on such things, since those that know me already know what my opinions are on this topic; most of the general population won’t sit and listen to a reasonable argument or have a productive discussion on such “hot button” topics.
So I want to say thank you for the discussion. I truly appreciate the opportunity to re-examine the issue. So far, I have heard no compelling argument to change my outlook or opinion on this issue, and I sincerely hope that at some point someone will read this and realize that they’re giving someone power over them with words, and change how they see such offensive language. If even one person has that moment of realization, then all the effort and time I’ve spent talking about this, has been time well spent.
I hope you, and everyone who reads this, now or in the future, have a very pleasant day.
I’m not assuming that at all. You’re assuming the ones who are capable enough haven’t stood up and said to stop using that word.
They have.
https://www.specialolympics.org/stories/impact/why-the-r-word-is-the-r-slur
https://www.spreadtheword.global/resource-archive/r-word-faq
I have not made such an assumption.
The statements in context are referring to a potential future time when they say that it’s not offensive. I made no statements about what has, or has not been said currently by those groups. I only acknowledged that currently the word is considered offensive.
I recognized in my original reply that the wording of the picture in the OP is problematic. Though it carries a decent enough message, the wording would be considered offensive by today’s standards.
Well, we know where you stopped reading.
Do we now?