More than 100 Arizona Palestinian, Arab, Muslim, and progressive Democrats and community leaders have signed a letter making the case for those reluctant to support Kamala Harris against Donald Trump.
“We know that many in our communities are resistant to vote for Kamala Harris because of the Biden administration’s complicity in the genocide,” the letter, published Thursday night, reads.
“Some of us have lost many family members in Gaza and Lebanon. We respect those who feel they simply can’t vote for a member of the administration that sent the bombs that may have killed their loved ones,” the letter continued. “As we consider the full situation carefully, however, we conclude that voting for Kamala Harris is the best option for the Palestinian cause and all of our communities.”
It is important to note that foreign nations like Iran, Russia and China are using this topic to convince voters to allow facism to win the election in the US. This doesn’t mean that Israel shouldn’t be held accountable for their actions. But history shows how foreign actors use these topics to manipulate us.
Yeah, it sucks but everyone just needs to hold their nose and do what will have the best outcome. Sadly, if Trump is elected, this will probably not be an issue in the future. Yeah, Harris needs to do more and the democrats need to be pressured into doing what’s right, but the only way that matters is if they’re in power. If Republicans have control, nothing you say regarding Palestine will matter.
Yeah, it sucks but everyone just needs to hold their nose and do what will have the best outcome.
southpark_cableguys.jpg
You should not normalize genocide by voting for any genocider candidate, nor publicly rationalizing doing so.
It is extremely effective to not vote! The republicans have been pushing this shit for years and I trust them.
I would like you and others to stop normalizing the genocide of Palestine. If you stop announcing your unconditional support for the people genociding Palestine to any degree then it has been effective.
In terms of being more generally politically effective, it is important to take a step away from the dictates of your political class faction. I think that having a simple red line of not supporting genocide should be enough for any moral person to do so.
Yes, let’s let a fascist who wants to kill the Palestinians even faster into power. It will be super effective to protest against him when he is using military force to suppress us. It’s not like he hasn’t already used BOTAC to kill leftists during the George Floyd uprisings. Surely all the guardrails will allow us to stop the genocide with him in power!
“After Trump, Our Turn” comrades! Don’t vote!
Yes, let’s let a fascist who wants to kill the Palestinians even faster into power.
Israel already has unconditional material support from the Biden-Harris administration on which the genocide is entirely dependent.
However, you can help prevent the normalization of genocide by saying it is your red line that you will not cross.
It will be super effective to protest against him when he is using military force to suppress us.
The Biden-Harris regime recently issued an EO, prompting a corresponding memo from the Pentagon, to authorize domestic military use, including lethal force against citizens in the US. Harris’ running mate mobilized the national guard against George Floyd protesters. Harris is a prosecutor known for harsh and unfair treatment of the accused.
They are not oppositional forces in this matter.
It’s not like he hasn’t already used BOTAC to kill leftists during the George Floyd uprisings.
The people that killed leftists were cops and right wing stochastic terrorists. The cops are funded and defended and overseen and protected by Dems at all levels of government. And it is a rabbit hole, but the fates of Ferguson organizers are something to follow as well.
Surely all the guardrails will allow us to stop the genocide with him in power!
There are no guardrails. The question is whether you will take the first step in opposition of genocide by refusing to support it. There is much more work to be done.
"After Trump, Our Turn” comrades! Don’t vote!
Please center Palestine in your thoughts.
I’m aware of literally everything you are talking about but I have historical context that you apparently lack. Look up what happened to socialists in nazi germany. We need to stop the fascists before they take power or everything gets worse. Things can fucking get worse.
My inclination is damage limitation not some bullshit ideal. There are two options on the table, and I voted for Harris because I love my trans brothers and sisters, my many migrant friends, my wife who is a disabled immigrant. I hate Harris and Biden for what they are doing to migrants and Palestinians. Trump would make literally everyone worse off. So I will take my meager power at the ballot box to oppose fascism. Outside of the ballot box I will oppose the democrats for the genocidaires they are.
Is there a single post in your history where you don’t spew absolut bullshit?
Every post of yours is unfounded garbage about how Democrats are complicit or working with the GOP to do some nefarious thing.
Here’s an unfounded claim for you: you’re full of shit and a foreign agent trying to sway votes for fascism.
I’m sure the not-Harris candidate who wins will do wonders for Palestine
Refusing to normalize genocide is an important first step for working against it. The reason Dems can do genocide and not fear a loss is that so many people fall in line over threats that “the other guy” will win.
I get the concept of the Boogeyman opponent, but I’m this case nothing is myth, or fearmongering. We can see what the Biden admin is doing, and assume Harris won’t be very far from it. It’s not desirable but holy shit is there room for more chaos and death.
We have seen how trump handles the middle east, and color that with his modern statements. It’s evident trump’s path will be materially worse for Palestinians.
Given that trump or Harris will be the next president, the best choice for everyone is Harris.
As a bonus, the opportunity to “refuse to normalize” will be in jeopardy with trump, as evidenced by his language to go after dissidents, his treatment of protesters, and the leveraging of stochastic terrorism to motivate his base towards race/ethnicity based attacks, the Muslim ban, the kashoggi murder, the soleimani assassination, his conservative judicial appointments, his under the table relationship with Saudi Arabia via kushner, and his on the record praise of strongmen like netanyahu.
If you think it’s hard to denormalize what’s happening re Israel now, strap in for the trump ride.
Edit by abstaining on principle “you” may bring about the single worst person for progressive ideals, middle east stability, and Muslim security in the US with consequences lasting for decades.
So, do you agree with these Muslim leaders, or are you saying you know better than them?
We should protest and take action, but vote for those who will make things less bad. Our system is fucked, but making yourself effectively invisible doesn’t help. If your vote doesn’t got for one of the two parties you are worth as much as someone who doesn’t exist.
We should protest and take action, but vote for those who will make things less bad.
The Biden-Harris administration is committing this genocide. “Less bad”, friend, they are doing the worst thing.
Our system is fucked, but making yourself effectively invisible doesn’t help.
Given the extent to which Dem voters rely on personal moralism, I think that “don’t vote for genocidera” should be enough. You are complicit if you vote for a person doing genocide.
But if you prefer to think this is about strategy, what do you think makes your interests more relevant? Being a loudly guaranteed lever pull for the party even when you acknowledge they are doing a genocide, or someone that will, at least some of the time, actually withhold their vote on a stated principal?
It is actually your logic that leads to irrelevancy. It is logic handed down by party PR ghouls and they repeat it because it works: it means they don’t need to listen to you, they can just convince you to disempower yourself!
If your vote doesn’t got for one of the two parties you are worth as much as someone who doesn’t exist.
I disagree, but even if I didn’t, a vote complicit in genocide is worse than not voting at all.
They’re not doing the worst thing. Doing Genocide AND the 2025 Trump agenda is worse.
Genocide is the worst thing and should be a red line. Please do your best to not help erase that red line.
Question: Is genocide in Xinjiang a red line for you?
I already know what your answer’s going to be, I’m just asking to highlight what your real goal here is.
Yes. BadA + BadB < BadA
I understand your stated idealist position, “I won’t vote for someone engaged in genocide”.
… but the reality is that Trump win, which is likely without every possible Dem vote, will cause the worst possible genocide.
So by withholding your vote you’re not complicit in Harris-supported genocide, but you’re complicit in Trump supported genocide, which everyone understands to be worse.
As I often say in these threads, withholding your vote is precisely what the republicans want you to do.
Seriously, will your ideals be much comfort when Trump supported Netanyahu is grinding Gaza to dost?
I understand your stated idealist position, “I won’t vote for someone engaged in genocide”.
I don’t think it’s particularly idealist, though it is formulated to appeal to those with empathy. If they won’t listen to “genocide is a red line”, what do you think they will listen to? A long-winded explanation of political organizing, realignments, game theory, economics? Just saying “don’t support genocide” elicits a flurry of bad-faith insults and absurd lies.
… but the reality is that Trump win, which is likely without every possible Dem vote, will cause the worst possible genocide.
There is no bigger gun to threaten people with. There is already genocide with maximalist support from the United States and a deftly subjugated Europe. It even gets support from alleged “good guys” that vote for Democrats. No resistance except from those with personal connections, a stronger connection to empathy, or the politically educated.
So by withholding your vote you’re not complicit in Harris-supported genocide, but you’re complicit in Trump supported genocide, which everyone understands to be worse.
That’s funny, I don’t think I told anyone to vote for Trump, either. Instead, I do work against genocide, organizing actions, politically educating those who don’t just sit on their computers and justify supporting genocide to one another.
As I often say in these threads, withholding your vote is precisely what the republicans want you to do.
Of course it is, because the GOP and Democrats are competing for votes for an election. Do you believe this to be revelatory?
Seriously, will your ideals be much comfort when Trump supported Netanyahu is grinding Gaza to dost?
That is already happening under the Biden-Harris administration that forwarded this genocide for over the last year. Have you not seen the destruction, mass murder, burning of children alive? Do you not know where those weapons come from, how they are donated, what logistical support they receive, how the US attacks all opposition to the genocide?
“don’t vote for Harris” means “vote for trump”, so that is what you are saying, with a bunch of other BS tacked on.
Who should I vote for?
Anyone that is not a genocider. Even not voting is better. If you would like to communicate that genocide is unacceptable, then the camdidates with anti-genkxise messages are de la Cruz and Stein.
I will not vote for those people.
I’m so fucking sick of this ridiculous argument. You’ve identified the problem, what’s your genius solution?
They solution is to I’ve the country to trump and not have elections anymore. They are not too bright.
The solution requires commitment to building power, i.e. leverage and numbers, gaining a political education, and engaging in action.
What I am suggesting is just the absolute bare minimum, and you all know it: genocide should be a red line and you are complicit if you vote for someone doing a genocide.
Your vote isn’t strategic, either. You are just demonstrating that you will put up with anything and will be ignorable for the indefinite future for them to do these and greater crimes. And by justifying it to yourself, you will fail to take the necessary steps to, in your words, “solve the problem”.
Great intro to philosophy lesson. In the real world, we have the choice between Harris and Trump. You can forget anyone else exists because our election system is broken. If I don’t vote, one of them will still win. Now, without philosophizing, what do we do to stop the violence?
Great intro to philosophy lesson.
I did not describe anything particularly philosophical.
In the real world, we have the choice between Harris and Trump
Oh, so you just mean you are trying to be condescending and pretend I am not being reakistic. Unfortunately for this excuse for why you will vote for someone doing a genocide, I am pragmatic. I criticize your ideas of “strategy”, which are just bog standard lesser evil vote shaming trotted out to discipline Democrats’ empathetic voters every 4 years and suggest you take the first steps towards empowerment by doing the same. My hope would be that them asking you to support genocide would be enough to take that srep., that you could accept that there is not a greater evil than genocide, and that as a good person, you would be an opponent of genocide rather than complicit.
If you want to talk more specifically on being pragmatic when it cones to political power,I would be happy to do so. It is mostly about building leverage, which is basically the exact opposite of your rhetoric.
You can forget anyone else exists because our election system is broken.
The system is working as intended.
But in your terminology, would you say it is more broken or less broken than when the Whigs dissolved and an abolitionist party took its place over the issue of slavery? In this scenario, you would be someone saying that you must always vote for the pro-slavers.
If I don’t vote, one of them will still win.
Yes, that is true. But are you going to orient yourself in opposition to genociders or are you going to decide on which one to support? I think it should be a red line.
Never again means never again for anyone. What do you think that phrase means?
Now, without philosophizing, what do we do to stop the violence?
“The violence” is far too vague for me to give you any real answer. If you mean US support for genocide, then you will need to join groups opposed to the genocide, participate in political education, and build those organizations so that they can make demands and enact material change, such as blockading weapons manufacturers. Or, if you can only understand politics through elections, you can spend your time organizing a principled anti-genocide voting bloc, ideally tied to some material interest. You have no leverage as a voter unless you can credibly threaten to withhold your vote. And your leverage is dramatically decreased when you act as an individual rather than an organized bloc.
Is that practical enough for you?
That was a lot of words that, in no way, answered my question.
I have to say, “The evil foreigners are to blame for us becoming fascist” is an onion-level take.
I mean, it’s no secret that a bunch of countries are running massive disinformation campaigns in order to divide the populations of western countries. Attempting to destabilise another country by propping up certain political factions is a tactic that has been employed across the world for at least the past century (see: Lenin, and how he got in power).
Of course, we are responsible for ensuring that we do not become fascist states, but acting like theres no outside influence propping up the fascists is naive at best.
Yes, but the point stands: Lenin wasn’t grown in a vat in Berlin, he was only ever in Vienna because being in St. Petersburg would get him arrested. There are American political factions favored by certain foreign nations, but they are, at the end of the day, American political factions. And I frankly find it
deeply depressinghilarious that the current state of the discourse seems to agree that foreigners are destroying the country, but can’t agree over which foreigners exactly. Talk about Overton loopholes.
So many options for the title:
Jiminy Cricket is a Putin plant.
America’s Collective Conscience: Misguided or Manchurian Candidate?
Ask not what your country can do for genocide, ask what genocide can do for your country.
From what I’ve seen over the last year, Iran and China are working against Trump. Russia is working for him and so are some Israeli actors. This is unsurprising as Trump would be worse for Iran and China and better for Russia and Israel. This is not to say there isn’t interference, but that the sides aren’t all pro-fascism. Assuming fascism is ascribed only to Trump.
China is 100% for Trump. Iran is more complicated.
Iran is more along the lines of “fuck the US. But, fuck, US, fuck it up the right way ok? Butt fuck, the US.”
More like Iran really wants to progress as a nation technologically without progressing as a nation socially. China and Russia were able to do that, and Iran is being unable to because of the US, but was doing better for a while with the last Iran deal that Trump fucked up.
Iran is sort of the weirdest place in the world. highly educated folk, restricted access to literature and products, all sorts of restrictions on women. It’s always been very educated, and until the US overthrew the democratically elected government, it was doing quite well in the academic realm.
The Iranian religious conservatives have such brutal tactics that they effortlessly stifle any social progress. As seen the last dozen times women have attempted it.
They are also in the weird realm of not being able to accept Kamala as president for ‘moral’ reasons and Trump directly harmed Iran. Which all benefitted China and Russia because guess who supplies that stuff now?
So, yeah. Iran is complicated
Well put!
There are also a number of conflicting views between Iran’s religious authorities and the civilian government that have caused a lot of these inconsistencies.
Really? What’s the Chinese pro Trump angle that I’m not seeing?
Anything that weakens the west is good for the CCP. Also, Trump’s trade war benefitted them a lot last time.
Weak west also means smaller market for China’s export driven economy. How did the trade war benefit them?
I can’t remember another recent candidate in the US that not only wasn’t super pro-Taiwan, but said the US should just hang them out to dry if the PRC were to invade the island. They probably like that side of him.
Plus, an incredibly vain, greedy and self-confident idiot is not the hardest of targets to get to do what you want.
The Taiwan angle I get. The idiot angle too. However that is complimented by further decreasing Chinese access to the US market.
Important to note that fascism and genocide broadly persist under the current Harris co-led administration. Persecution and the marginalization of black Americans persists in the most democrat-controlled cities of America, not just in the Uyghur Autonomous Region.
Amusing that Americans fear countries that, even combined, are responsible for a fraction of the worldwide political coups and corruption America itself is responsible for.
America has singlehandedly propped up the Israel military, why pretend it is divorced from moral responsibility in the aftermath of a genocide?
doesn’t mean that Israel shouldn’t be held accountable
Why pretend Americans have any moral high ground in geopolitics, especially regarding Israel?
This new tack that Harris is bad for Black people is as transparent as it is far fetched.
As the California AG, she piloted programs that provided educational resources to both released prisoners, as well as at risk kids beginning in elementary schools.
Those programs reduced truancy and improved outcomes for at risk individuals and families, who were disproportionately black. They have since become national models of social harm reduction.
Harris supports legalization of marijuana and releasing non violent drug offenders, again disproportionately benefiting black Americans.
Edit: Although these statements are all trivial to verify, some people may lack the basic search skills to do so. the following links provide additional information:
Attorney General Kamala D. Harris Launches Initiative to Reduce Recidivism in California 2013
Kamala Harris, District Attorney for San Francisco, launched Back on Track 2009
[The program has] Been adopted by the National District Attorneys Association as a model program.
Kamala Harris Will Legalize recreational marijuana 2024 official campaign announcement
Why spout obvious lies when Google exists? There are many examples of Harris fighting to keep now-overturned convincts imprisoned as well, need I go on?
“Defiance of the federal court order requiring the reduction of the California prisoner population is reminiscent of the Southern governors of the 1950s declaring their defiance of federal court desegregation orders,” Erwin Chemerinsky, dean of UC Berkeley Law School, told NPR at the time. “Both were misguided efforts to undermine enforcement of the Constitution.” Added Barry Krisberg, longtime president of the National Council on Crime and Delinquency, “The legal arguments that the state is putting forward make no sense.”
https://prospect.org/justice/how-kamala-harris-fought-to-keep-nonviolent-prisoners-locked-up/
Removed by mod
Is this a reflection of the kind of insults you heard as a child learning to interact with others?
Go back to your country
A white supremacist slogan from a supposed anti-fascist?
You’re being downvoted but you’re not wrong. While a Trump presidency has dark implications it happening due to foreign interference would be no different than the coups, assassinations, and implanted dictatorships America has done in other countries for decades. Trumps whole immigrant fear mongering doesn’t happen if the US government had helped the countries they fucked up in Central and South America.
I think it’s important to remember this
Do Muslim’s really think voting for Muslim ban guy who would give Israel even more weapons a better choice?
No but Russian troll farm employees sure want us to believe it.
Oh good, this must be a safe community. Asklemmy@lemmy.ml banned me for having the audacity to suggest the russian trolls might be fewer in number than the number of their accounts would suggest.
Yeah, their admin is working for russia.
I just got banned from !asklemmy@lemmy.ml for 2 months because I said I wasn’t comfortable installing an Android app with a Russian developer. The audacity!
A poll released Monday conducted by Arab News/YouGov found that Trump led Harris 45 percent to 43 percent among Arab Americans. Those voters said that they viewed Trump as more supportive of Israel’s current government, but that he was more likely to end the conflict.
In 2020, FL Hispanics were bombarded with ads saying that Biden would give away Florida to Castro as part of his love for communism or deport them all to Cuba. Trump won FL by a large margin, mostly because Miami area was not as blue as in the past. 60% of FL voters still voted for $15 minimum wage.
In 2020, also, heavily hispanic southern counties of TX went pro Trump on ads that there would be a lot of work in the counties from building walls.
AIPAC lobby has spent record amounts on primaries for democrats this year where the incumbent supported a ceasefire. The only ones AIPAC won were ones where they did not mention Israel at all. Other Republican PACs are blanketing Arab zip codes with how pro Israel Harris is, and Jewish zip codes with how she is a muslim plant.
While Trump very proudly has RFK boast of his desire to end the most stupid war the US has ever conducted, Trump is favoured by Netanyahu, including reported daily strategy calls on how to sabotage Biden’s fake constraints policies. He is more likely to believe any benefits Netanyahu tells him of a full war on Iran/Lebanon/Syria over any prudence.
Trump’s main claim for 2020 election “rigging” is that a Hunter Biden laptop existed, without anything implicating President on it. But republican rigging of misinformation, and vote suppression, just wasn’t enough even though that nothing story was still all over the news.
There are serious problems with US electoral system, and it is orders of magnitude worse every cycle.
In 2020, FL Hispanics were bombarded with ads saying that Biden would give away Florida to Castro as part of his love for communism or deport them all to Cuba. Trump won FL by a large margin, mostly because Miami area was not as blue as in the past. 60% of FL voters still voted for $15 minimum wage.
JFC people are fucking stupid
deleted by creator
Many just want to stay home, but in contested districts their absence may mean something.
Many are extremely conservative, and just want a tax cut.
The tax cut that Turnip would only give to the 1%?
Lot are well off, and the rest think they’ll get it anyway.
Remember, the Trump tax cuts were popular-ish even when most people got like $100/yr.
No, but virtue signaling white folks will be happy to tell you that, rather than “voting for genocide”, it’s better to vote 3rd party or not at all… thereby electing Trump.
It’s a principled nut punch to every Muslim, themselves, and all the rest of us. So brave.
It was a question of Dead or Dead, as both parties gave unconditional support to Israel. These are the people that chose you over revenge. They literally turned the other cheek. Recognize it.
Try explaining this to .ml
Comment removed.
Reason: Rule 1 (western propaganda)Touché
BUT AMERICA IS THE TRUE EVIL, RUSSIA REALLY IS THE ONLY GOOD GUY IN THE GAME - probable .ml response.
Spot on. I’ve essentially read that on that instance last year and it yucked me tf out. Leaving .ml was the best decision.
I think the tankies have noticed, lol.
Easier to block them and move on.
We respect those who feel they simply can’t vote for a member of the administration that sent the bombs that may have killed their loved ones
Try explaining this to .ee, .world
Thanks for making it disgustingly obvious how easy it is to cherry-pick statements, excluding the full context, to push forward an agenda.
We all know the situation. But we also have more folds in our grey matter to understand the consequences of the alternatives.
That is fucking brutal.
I agree but man what a horrible choice.
yeah its a truly dystopian choice but voting for somebody doesn’t mean you approve of everything they have done or will do.
It just means for those with affected friends and families they have done the cruel calculus and have decided which path will be lesser of two evils.
I fully expect trump to try to deport palestinian refugees and its crazy this is where we are at.
It is no choice between someone who disappoints me in their responses on this issue, and someone who openly wonders if sending a nuclear warhead into a hurricane a couple hundred miles offshore will lead to a positive result. And of course that was with where his mental state was at over 4 years ago.
Well said!!
I mean, he’s promised to deport Americans who protest on behalf of the Palestinians. He sure wouldn’t hesitate to deport Palestinian refugees.
Every election in the US is that way. It’s a choice of the lesser evil and you can only vote against the greater evil not vote for good.
IA! Fthagn!
Not every election has a US supported genocide as an issue, though.
Good, I hope it does some good. Any other vote is a vote for Trump, intended or not, and Trump won’t just ignore the genocide. His track record makes it abundantly clear that he’ll absolutely make it worse.
I mean he is where money is and that is powerful zionist lobbies so yea you can bet money that he will be super enthusiastic to help Israel.
I don’t know about that. I think he just doesn’t care about some “brown” people getting genocided. Unless there is graft he can profit from, then he will care. And I’m sure there will be a For Sale sign on the White House lawn about it.
Wow, this milkshake brings all the .ml to the yard.l
And they’re like, don’t vote so hard.
Damn right, both sides are equard!
I’d impeach you, but it makes me hard
deleted by creator
Some of us have lost many family members in Gaza and Lebanon.
Watch the “a vote for Kamala is a vote for genocide” crowd claim these Palestinian and Lebanese Americans support genocide in Palestine and Lebanon.
I love you but let’s let the bad faith people speak for themselves.
Those shitty trolls pretending to be tankies don’t need your help.
They were going to come in here regardless. And they have.
Just don’t bring up CCP genocide, they are totally cool with that genocide.
They claim it isn’t happening. Just a Western lie.
Welcome to your first exposure to the NGO and political class constellation. You might notice that the letter itself is not just Palestinians, either, but includes, per their own statement, Arabs, “Progressive Democrats”, and “Community Leqders”. Notice how many are top-level leadership of various Dem-connected NGOs and how few seem to be average folks.
Dems have done the same thing when it comes to supporting cops against demands for racial justice re: policing. They gather a set of black " community leaders", I.e. business owners and heads of NGOs and party-associated orgs, and then say, “but actually we want more cops!” It is tokenizing.
But you have correctly identified its purpose: to get you to participate in the tokenization and have a green light for complicity in genocide. After all, Real Palestinians ™ gave you permission, right?
It’s not false that Trump would be even worse though, having encouraged Netanyahu to be even more brutal than he is. So if you have the choice between a vote to keep Trump out, or not voting and making it easier for him to take over, the less worse (but still bad) option for Palestine is to vote for whoever will most effectively keep Trump out.
I know this kind of electoral pragmatism feels a bit disgusting, but the cure for that is to get politically active outside of the electoral system, in addition to keeping the worst candidate out at election time.
It’s not false that Trump would be even worse though, having encouraged Netanyahu to be even more brutal than he is.
Netanyahu already has unconditional material support for the genocide from the Biden-Harris administration and they help run interference quite competently both internationally and domestically. They would still have you believe they are working for a “ceasefire” while celebrating the assassination of negotiators and sending unlimited JDAMs to bomb children in refugee camps.
There is no worse. They are far more competent at this.
Though again, you should be against genocide and not support genociders. It is not strategic to nirnalize genocide. It is not smart tactics to be a guaranteed lever pull even up to genocide.
I know this kind of electoral pragmatism feels a bit disgusting, but the cure for that is to get politically active outside of the electoral system, in addition to keeping the worst candidate out at election time.
It is not pragmatic at all. It is just the lesser evil argument that Dems always use to sheepdog people with a conscience into helping them out. It is a one-way street, as they never actually have to do anything at all that you demand, they are, correctly, treating you as a guaranteed cote. They will just send their PR teams at you.
We are in this position right now because of this “pragmatism” that prevents any notion of accountability or principal or the idea that you should be able to make a demand and have it reflected in policy. The genocide in Gaza is very unpopular at least in polls. The reason the political class does not follow this popular will is that you are not perceived as any kind of threat. You gladly give away all leverage and announce you will always do so, even up to voting for genocide!
And this is just disempowerment at the level of an individual. We are of course much more powerful when we organize together and build towards leverage. But that must be done through organizations and cannot happen through me, an individual, telling you that you have a moral responsibility to work against and never for genociders.
See in the start you’re right, yes, Trump and Harris have the same policy in regards to the Palestinian Genocide. But you act like that means they’re identical human beings who have identical intentions and who will make identical political actions.
Such people do not care. They didn’t care that Roe got struck down because they acted like Clinton would have picked the exact same SCOTUS justices since “both parties are the same.”
And when brown people and queer people get marched into camps under Trump, they’ll tell us that Harris would have done the same thing and if we wanted change, we should have voted for a third party candidate without saying which candidate that should have been.
Very easy to have such opinions from your ivory throne.
See in the start you’re right, yes, Trump and Harris have the same policy in regards to the Palestinian Genocide.
Actually I argued that the Biden-Harris administration is particularly competent at it, as they provide full, unconditional support but also rope Europe into it and convince their domestic base to not oppose them.
If Trump had been in office the people here currently doing genocide apologetics would be in the streets and building power against this. And Europe would be less subservient to US interests.
It is important to understand that impact is not just the overt garbage a politician says, it is what their policies are and how effective their propaganda is.
But you act like that means they’re identical human beings who have identical intentions and who will make identical political actions.
No I don’t.
Called it.
“I care more about Palestine than those worthless Palestinians do.”
“But I don’t care at all about Ukraine or any domestic issues.”
Better yet, ask TheOub about Tiananmen.
Or the Uyghurs. Bring that topic up, and suddenly his mama is calling him home for dinner.
“Domestic issues” - they can’t complain about the domestic issues, because the country they are in will then send them to a gulag or help them fall out of a high window.
Please do your best to not tokeize marginalized communities. I have mobilized more Palestinians for actions than there are Palestinians on this list. They do not speak for Palestinians. These are party insiders and the heads of NGOs. And, oer the letter itself, which you obviously did not read, it is signed not just by Palestinians, but by “Arabs, Progressive Democrats, and Community Leaders”.
Democrats do this tokenizing bullshit all the time. Their favorite target is black people where they use the same subclass of people and claim thev speak for " the black community" itself a racist statement, as black people are not a monolith, just like Palestinians are not a monolith.
Imagine if you saw a headline and letter that read, “Latinos sign letter urging lower wages for Latinos” and it was just signed by a bunch of CEOs. Would you go around telling people that if they want higher wages for Latinos, they know better than Latinos? Would you pretend this is a representative group? Would you go around demanding lower pay?
I have mobilized more Palestinians for actions than there are Palestinians on this list.
Thank goodness those backward people have you as their savior!
I work in solidarity, not saviorism. Please do your best to act in good faith and not make things up. It is particularly disgusting when I am opposing a genocide for you to attempt dishonest zingers.
The point I was making was that this letter is not representative despite the various commenters here attempting to tokenize Palestinians.
In solidarity with the Palestinians who agree with you but not the Palestinians who don’t, apparently. Their opinions are irrelevant.
I work in solidarity with all Palestinians, but that does not mean I agree with or do work in agreement with the opinions of every Palestinian. That is the tokenizing logic I am referring to.
Palestinians are not a monolith. Please stop treating them as one. They are real, actual people.
And the Palestinians who signed this letter - which was not just signed by Palestinians - are relevant. Unfortunately their relevance in this instance is in a display of party loyalty and in favor of a candidate doing genocide, and it is not coincidental that they drew from NGOs and party insiders to curate the signatories.
Welcome to the Dick chopping block shop. We can take off half an inch or the whole thing
Edit
I hope you people downloading me realize that not pulling the lever in the trolley problem is a choice just as much as pulling the lever
Man, I hope this changes some minds, but it might be too little too late. She’s had a lot of opportunities to turn things around with the Arab community, and she’s flat out ignored all of them. I’m really worried this will be her version of Hillary’s, “I don’t need to campaign in the Rust Belt,” decision.
It’s a major complication / fault with running a candidate who is in office already. They cannot deviate from the official position, tone, language, admission of guilt, etc.
I’m not saying I have secret info and Harris would 180 on Israel if she won, just saying she can’t even build breathing room from Biden while being the sitting vp.
This is not an excuse for the administration’s stance, just a reflection on the challenges of running while in office.
Yeah, when she first started running, I figured she was trying not to undermine Biden’s ceasefire negotiations, but I assumed she would find some way to reach out to the Arab communities she needs for Michigan and Wisconsin. Now It’s the 11th hour, and she hasn’t done anything. I just don’t understand why they’re completely ignoring this demographic.
They cannot deviate from the official position, tone, language, admission of guilt, etc.
Why not? She’s not the Secretary of State, and she’s not running the administration like Cheney. She can differ from Biden. After all, she moved to his right when she said she would appoint a Republican to her cabinet.
They cannot deviate from the official position, tone, language, admission of guilt, etc.
Just have her hug an Arab child or something.
Why are they so bad at this?
Imo the Arab/Palestinian community would see that for the pandering that it is
Yeah, probably. She should still do it.
Her problem isn’t just with the Palestinian community.
There was a surge of enthusiasm among Democrats when Kamala was first elected because people thought she might take action on Gaza. That enthusiasm soon evaporated when it became apparent that she wouldn’t.
People are desperate for anything and she’s giving them nothing.
Yeah let’s downplay EVERYTHING ELSE she’s campaigned on and redefine democratic excitement to be focused solely on Palestine, and yeah you’re right.
and redefine democratic excitement to be focused solely on Palestine
I’m not redefining anything. I’m telling you: Democrats are not excited about Harris.
“Sure, she supports genocide, but logically you should still vote for her for these other reasons” is not how you win an election.
If people aren’t excited to vote for your candidate, they stay home.
A: Defines Kamala Harris purely in terms of the war Netanyahu started, from an American client state for the last 40 years, which Biden then supported.
B: Points out that Democrats are hugely supportive of Harris, although her failure to break away from all of that and condemn the war in Gaza is a huge black mark, yes.
A: Defines Harris purely in terms of the war et cetera, but this time adding “I’m telling you.”
Sterling.
It’s a complicated issue and explaining it to people who have been spending the last year consuming Iranian propaganda isn’t going to get her anywhere. People want her to say “Israel is evil” and anything other than that will have them screaming “genocide Kamala” in the same way they scream “genocide Joe.”
It’s a complicated issue
“We should condition weapons sales to Israel” is not complicated. Centrists love to pretend that anything they don’t want to do is too complicated for feeble progressive minds to understand.
Yeah it’s really a no-win scenario. Probably why she’s just avoiding the subject altogether.
She’s had a lot of opportunities to turn things around with the Arab community, and
You DO realize that she can’t campaign on that, right?
I know it’s a little subtle for an American political scene that no longer uses such terms as waffler and carpet-bagger, but these used to be campaign-wrecking slurs.
She’d be labeled a waffler in seconds. And not only would we like her to change her position, but so would the gqp for the political damage. She can’t change until she’s achieved a 4-year contract.
No one is saying she has to do a 180 on Gaza, but she could have let a Palestinian speak at the DNC, or met with the Uncommitted leadership last month. It would take very little effort to make herself look more appealing to Arab Americans than Biden and Trump, but she just didn’t do it.
It’s the lawyer effect, they overanalyze everything and make “safe” bets. Trump is going out there and waving his bare ass around while the Dems sit above wringing their hands about what each micro group might think. They’re too worried about stroking “group leaders” egos than actually addressing real people’s needs.
Yeah, that seems right. I also wonder if they’re chasing the wrong numbers. There was a WSJ article last month that said swing state voters were more confident in Trump’s handling of Gaza than Harris’. It didn’t necessarily mean that they would vote for Trump, and honestly, a lot of the impression that Trump is, “stronger,” on military issues is probably just misogyny, but I could see an overreacting campaign look at and say, “we can’t soften our position on Gaza at all, we need to close that gap!”
In that case she sided with a foreign power over Americans and that’s a worse look politically.
It’s simple math: Jewish voting block > Muslim voting block
I don’t think that’s it. Jews tend to live in New York or California, which she has no chance of losing.
A lot of people have grandparents that fought against an antisemitic regime tho.
It’s the lawyer effect, they overanalyze everything and make “safe” bets. Trump is going out there and waving his bare ass around while the Dems sit above wringing their hands about what each micro group might think.
Except progressives and Muslims.
You do realize her campaign has pretty much shuttered Muslims out right. They were expelled from every campaign stop and the national convention. It’s pretty hard to think of a way she could have expressed they were not welcome beyond what she’s done short of lethal violence.
Citation needed
New York, LA Times, and Chicago Tribune. Do your own homework on the dates you lazy SOB. It’s fucking public record.
Not the way this works, you knob. You make a claim, YOU back it up. Don’t go handing out homework assignments, this isn’t 5th period civics.
Pro-Palestinian delegates say their request for a speaker at DNC was shut down
Kamala Harris Refused to Meet With Uncommitted About Gaza
Detroit Muslim leader ejected from Kamala Harris rally
Usually, when I’m presented with information I’m unfamiliar with, I take a minute to search it myself before I expose everyone to my ignorance, especially when the comment isn’t directed at me. Anyway, the original commenter was being a bit hyperbolic, but yes, the Harris campaign has made some major snubs towards the Arab community, and she hasn’t done any campaign events with Arab leaders.
Usually, when i make some kind of claim, i back it up with links without being pissy about it. But hey, you managed several little backhanded digs, so go slay queen.
Fact is that no matter what position Kamala takes on this, she’ll lose votes somewhere and win votes somewhere. Most Jewish people vote for Democrats. Trump just straight up does not care about Palestine. That’s a much more simplistic take.
Well, first of all, I would be very careful equating Jewish people with support for Israel and their attacks on Gaza. Not all Jews are Zionists, and not all Zionists support Netanyahu. I don’t know the numbers for sure, but I would bet that Evangelicals and military hawks make up a larger base of pro-Israel voters than the Jewish population.
The thing is, Biden’s policy, from a material position, is essentially, “There is almost nothing Israel could do that would limit our military support,” while Trump’s position is, “There is absolutely nothing Israel could do that would limit our military support.” If you’re the kind of voter that would be put off by any criticism of Israel, you’re probably voting for Trump no matter what.
Like, sure, I’d Harris started chanting, “From the river to the sea!” and demanding the immediate decolonization of the Israel, yeah, she’d lose a lot of voters. But if she had taken a position like, “Israel has a right to defend itself, but the bloodshed in Gaza has gone on long enough, and we must acknowledge that the Netanyahu administration has been a major obstacle in ceasefire negotiations,” she would have been massively more appealing to Palestinian supporters, and she would have only risked hard-liners who, again, almost certainly have gone for Trump anyway. Instead, she told Netanyahu that she would, “not be silent,” on Palestinian suffering, and since then, has been mostly silent on Palestinian suffering. It’s like she was trying to appeal to no one on this issue.
if she had taken a position like, “Israel has a right to defend itself, but the bloodshed in Gaza has gone on long enough, and we must acknowledge that the Netanyahu administration has been a major obstacle in ceasefire negotiations,” she would have been massively more appealing to Palestinian supporters
Thing is that she doesn’t really have to. She’s already massively more attractive to Palestinian supporters than Trump or not voting. That’s the problem with a two-party system with only two real choices.
Polling does not back that up; she’s two points behind Trump with Arab Americans and in serious danger of losing Michigan. There is a very real chance that the her position on Gaza will cost her this election.
There has been a lot of talk to pressure Democrats on the Arab issue, including during the primaries. At the end of the day, the Democratic agenda is much more friendly toward Palestine than the Republican agenda. Most Arab-Americans are fully aware of that and it will probably show on election day. But they may as well try to get as many concessions as possible before the election by threatening to withhold their vote. Makes sense.
I get what you’re saying, but that’s just an assumption. You’re assuming that they’ll show up for Harris, just like Hillary assumed she didn’t need to campaign in the Rust Belt. You may be right, but I wouldn’t gamble the Presidency on it again.
Not that I’m not glad, but this kind of endorsement needs time to permeate, and could’ve shut up a large chunk of disingenuous contrarians a MONTH ago.
Tokenizing a smattering of NGO and party-connected Palestinians would not shut up anyone against the genocide of Gaza.
Nor should they. Nobody should shut up about the genocide of Gaza. They SHOULD shut up about the stupid idea that not voting for Harris is any kind of way to help that situation.
If you support a genocider candidate, you undermine opposition to the genocide.
If you don’t support her, even if you think it’s somehow good for Palestinians for her to lose, which it isn’t, you are comfortably throwing minorities, LGBTQ, and progressives in every country around the world into the meat grinder to prove your point. Sacrificing and doing ANYTHING to help one particular group, the consequences for everyone else be damned, isn’t really all that different from the Zionists they purport to be against.
If you don’t support her, even if you think it’s somehow good for Palestinians for her to lose, which it isn’t
It is good for Palestinians and all people for the people of the US to think of genocide as unacceptable.
you are comfortably throwing minorities, LGBTQ, and progressives in every country around the world into the meat grinder to prove your point.
Do you think there are no queer people or minorities in Gaza? Are they immune to JDAM bombs?
Though really, you have no concept of solidarity. You seek to pit these groups against each other because the political class that you support puts a gun to their head. Instead of repeating their sociopathic threats, you should work in solidarity with all marginalized people.
An injury to one is an injury to all.
Sacrificing and doing ANYTHING to help one particular group, the consequences for everyone else be damned, isn’t really all that different from the Zionists they purport to be against.
As you can see, I do not share the logic of pitting marginalized groups against one another. However you literally just tried to do that.
Please do some introspection.
Acknowledging that in a world of 10 billion people, groups do not always have the same overlapping interests or that the best course of action for the most people does not always correspond with the best course of action for one group in particular does NOT equate to pitting groups against each other. That is a childish oversimplification that borders on anime protagonist morality, and unfortunately, the real world doesn’t have writers who ensure that there are perfect solutions to be found if everyone involved is just stubborn enough.
Acknowledging that in a world of 10 billion people, groups do not always have the same overlapping interests or that the best course of action for the most people does not always correspond with the best course of action for one group in particular does NOT equate to pitting groups against each other.
We both know that is not how you framed it. It was not a vague generalization, it was an emphatic accusation, a lie, in fact, about specific groups I was abandoning.
I work in organizations that do solidarity work. Not any org that says “support the genocide of Palestine for LGBTQ!” Nor any org that says, “down with the gays for Palestine!” Though the latter doesn’t really exist, there is no correlary to the division of the marginalized that you are forwarding among those fighting for Palestinian liberation. In fact, my usual org for doing work for Palestine is very gay and very good on gender.
Shame on you for lying and shame on you for trying to disrupt solidarity among the marginalized. Queer people are not your pawns for pithy genocide apologetic zingers.
That is a childish oversimplification that borders on anime protagonist morality, and unfortunately, the real world doesn’t have writers who ensure that there are perfect solutions to be found if everyone involved is just stubborn enough.
I think you should do some introspection regarding what is childish and oversimplifying given your habit of ignoring almost everything I say and then making things up to attack instead.
I just can’t get in the mindset of “destroy the US to also do nothing about genocide”. Now let’s talk about your actions against the Uyghers that the Chinese govt has be genociding…oh wait, .ml is cool with that one.
How is her getting this endorsement over Trump stunning? It’s a no-fucking-shit development
Because somehow there are Muslims and Arab-Americans who have convinced themselves that voting for the guy who instituted the “Muslim Ban” and called their countries “shitholes” is better than voting for Harris.
There is a reason why Netanyahu and his war cabinet haven’t listened to people (including in Biden’s administration) pushing a cease fire. It’s because Netanyahu knows that if Trump wins, he will have permission to “finish what he started” in Gaza. Then Trump and Kushner will build golf courses there with Saudi money.
Because for people who lost loved ones in Gaza thanks to American aid and weapons, with her agreement and approval, it’s a painful thing for them to give.
And a clear indication of how terrifying the prospect is, for them, of what Trump might do to their loved ones, if he gets in.
Unfortunately it is not that. Notice the description of the letter signatories and their associations.
First, it is not just Palestinians. It is likely they would have 10% of the signatories if they had that requirement. It is Palestinians, Arabs, “Progressive Democrats”, and “Community Leaders”.
Second, it is the usual constellation of party groups and the heads of NGOs, I.E. people heavily personally invested in the party apparatus and toeing the line.
While I am sure some feel all kinds of negative emotions, at the end of the day these are largely self-intrtested climbers. You will recognize the type if you do work in this space. They always pop up when you try to organize substantial changes, they cooedinate with the party for PR purposes.
The names are listed. Most are Palestinian.
I’m glad you feel empowered to judge who are the real Palestinian voices, who gets to speak, and who’s a “largely self-interested climber” who feels that talking about the genocide in Gaza and playing up their Palestinian heritage is a really good way to get ahead in American politics. Without you to give me guidance, I might have fallen into taking this thing at face value.
Can you tell me more about some of these individual self-interested climbers? Some that you know, who and why specifically you already know that they’re not worth listening to? I’m sure you wouldn’t accuse someone of selling out their own country in the middle of a genocide just because of some vague notions (“you will recognize the type” and so on.) You clearly have some specific reason you can identify these specific people as being dishonest, when they sign this letter. Right?
The names are listed. Most are Palestinian.
Most are not labeled as Palestinian. Some are from Orgs that say Palestinian in the name, but that ia not the same thing by a long shot.
I’m glad you feel empowered to judge who are the real Palestinian voices
Yes it is the overwhelming number of everyday Palestinians demanding the end of genocide carried out by the Biden-Harris administration. It is the number of Palestinians I have personally turned out to actions that is far larger than this list. And that is just my personal experience in one place. They had to pad their numbers with none Palestinians and throw the net across an entire staye, focusing on NGOs. Yes I do get to judge this PR bullshit. It is just basic critical thinking and knowledge of the context. You should judge this bad-faith tokenization as well.
who gets to speak
I have never told anyone whether they get to speak. Please kindly retract and apologize for this invented falsehood.
and who’s a “largely self-interested climber”
Yes it is the heads of Democratic Party - associated NGOs and party orgs. If you have any experience with these kinda of organizations you will be fully familiar with how they operate.
who feels that talking about the genocide in Gaza and playing up their Palestinian heritage is a really good way to get ahead in American politics.
Such NGOs and party organizations are constant feeders for tokenizing marginalized identities and promoting party loyalists with those identities. This is in no way new nor is it rare. This is basic party politics for the last 60 years.
Can you tell me more about some of these individual self-interested climbers?
As the head of Dem-associated NGOs they will inevitably be exactly that. That is how you gain and retain those positions and ensure continual funding for you and your staff. I have both worked for and opposed and radicalized workers from these kinds of organizations for many years. Generally speaking, they keep a low profile outside of their official actions that are usually relatively tempered. They are either protecting their org and position or they are planning to run for office and are absolutely obsessive about how their career and “past activities” will appear. Fundamental material interests dictate behaviors that anyone who has actually worked in these spaces will immediately recognize. It is conspicuous how this list is curated.
Some that you know, who and why specifically you already know that they’re not worth listening to?
Why do I specifically need to know Arizonan NGO heads to know how they operate? I have lived and operated in many states, it is the same all over.
I’m sure you wouldn’t accuse someone of selling out their own country in the middle of a genocide just because of some vague notions (“you will recognize the type”)
They don’t need to think of it as selling out. Many will not. People like this rationalize their self-interest with feeling like they’re fighting the good fight. But they ultimately know that this list is an exercise in party loyalty and they know who butters their bread.
“You will recognize the type” is not a vague notion. It is understanding a subclass of our society, the heads of party-connected NGOs, which is 100% not your average person. It is as if you saw a letter of 50 latino CEOs telling you that lower wages are better for latinos. Are you just going to accept that or are you going to understand that CEOs are bound to profit-driving organizations that benefit from paying less for work? Do you need to know the CEOs personally to understand their material interests and social role? Does every one of those CEOs need to be twirling a mustache and cackling all the while? Can some of them be true believers that are also self-interested and have and maintain their positions because of how they function in the system? I’ve also known CEOs. Most think of themselves as good people that are very smart
You clearly have some specific reason you can identify these specific people as being dishonest, when they sign this letter. Right?
Please stick to what I actually say, thank you.
I don’t want to continue this conversation. You are lying.
Read the letter. It says more eloquently than I could, what is the massive difference between “everyday Palestinians demanding the end of genocide [weapons for which are supplied by] the Biden-Harris administration,” which of course makes perfect sense and is something I wholeheartedly support, after the important edit I’ve made on your behalf, versus everyday Palestinians who are okay with the utter disaster even beyond the present unspeakable disaster, that would be Trump coming to power.
I looked up some polls, I looked up who are some of the people on this list and their background. You’re wrong, and lying. I don’t even need to speak on it, because as a non-Palestinian I don’t have the authority on it that the people who already wrote a letter for you do. It’s already been said.
If you want to keep talking to me, let’s talk about: Is genocide in Xinjiang a red line?
I don’t want to continue this conversation.
Then why write 3 more paragraphs?
You are lying.
Ah yes, unjustified accusations of lying. Great.
Read the letter.
I read it yesterday and have already critiqued it several times.
It says more eloquently than I could, what is the massive difference between “everyday Palestinians demanding the end of genocide [weapons for which are supplied by] the Biden-Harris administration,” which of course makes perfect sense and is something I wholeheartedly support, after the important edit I’ve made on your behalf,
Rather than playing around editing my quotes, why not just be direct and honest? It sounds like you are trying to say you don’t think the Biden-Harris regime is committing genocide and that it should be more restrictiveky stated as " supplying weapons". Unfortunately, this would be both false and misleading.
The US does not merely “supply weapons”, it donates them. Israel is wholly dependent on the US for these weapons. The genocide could not happen without them and all parties know this. In the middle of genocide, the Biden-Harris regime continues to provide unrestricted weapons to Israel, including bypassing Congress to ensure that there is no pause or lack of stockpiles.
And of course, providing weapons is not the beginning or end of US support for the genocide. It is an effort to list the many different ways. The US provides logistical support to Israel, including military support. That “aid” pier? It was used as part of the “rescue operation” for a handful of Israelis where hundreds of Palestinians were killed. Israeli bombing intel? The US is flying P8 Poseidons all over the regikn, particularly Lebanon, and shares satellitr imagery on a constant basis. The Houthis standing in solidarity with Palestine? The US ramps up its own genocidal campaign against them (remember Yemeni kids?) and thank God they are failing. The US is sending not just THAAD batteries, but personnel to run them. The US strongarms support for Israel as best it can and threatens those who work against the genocide in Gaza. They immediately started a campaign against South Africa once they brought allegations to the ICJ. The US continues to make direct and substantial monetary donations to the Israeli state. Domestically, the US cracks down on protests against the genocide. They send cops to intimidate and beat us (funded by Biden!), university administrations funded by the feds expel and deport students. The Biden-Harris administration just designated Samidoun a terrorist organization. Samidoun organizes orisoner support and Gaza solidarity peotests around the country. While Samidoun denies the allegation, the claim is that they support the PFLP, which is a resistance organization similar to the ANC, which the US labeled, along with its member Joseph Mandela, a terrorist organization.
Please understand that you have much to learn on this topic. And when you have much to learn, I think the bare minimum is that you, by default, oppose genocide.
versus everyday Palestinians who are okay with the utter disaster even beyond the present unspeakable disaster, that would be Trump coming to power.
The heads of NGOs and party insiders are not “everyday”, that is obviously my point. It is conspicuous that this is their list.
I looked up some polls, I looked up who are some of the people on this list and their background. You’re wrong, and lying. I don’t even need to speak on it,
It is generally good practice to support accusations of lying and incorrectness with a rationale, maybe even evidence.
because as a non-Palestinian I don’t have the authority on it that the people who already wrote a letter for you do. It’s already been said.
I don’t remember seeing, “TheOubliette is lying and wrong” in that letter. Maybe you can point me to which line it is on?
But please, don’t tokenize Palestinians. You have a responsibility to be against genocide yourself, to become informed and not lash out. You cannot rely on any Palestinian to do this for you, let alone allow yourself to be manipulated by a list of party insiders and NGO heads. Be among the people. Read the history. Understand the violence.
If you want to keep talking to me, let’s talk about: Is genocide in Xinjiang a red line?
I will gladly discuss this in a different thread but I have decided that this would be a distraction in this one. Please center the genocide of Palestine with your words and actions.
I wish these .ml clowns would hold their impotent revolution stirring for ONE critical election. Once trump is gone and MAGA gets told they are unacceptable by a massive blue tsunami, then trump is completely into dementia before he gets another chance to lose, then you can go be a hero and fight against our interests at home in favor of…still doing genocide…or whatever ignorant magical change you think is going to happen instead.
If they’re having their revolution by voting in an election they need to brush up on what a revolution is.
Same if they think abstentionism positively impacts their chances of revolution.
We live in the most depressing timeline. Please vote for genociders. They won’t stop the genocide. But they also won’t turn America overnight into a dictatorship. It’s the best of 2 profoundly horrifying and depressing options. Another decade of international American war crimes awaits either way. But at the least, the status quo for Americans is better than fascism.
With a nation as powerful as the US, it’s never going to be one issue, and the options are rarely going to be simply good things versus simply bad things - at least until we have a form of democracy that is more representative and we do a lot of work on a, let’s just admit it, undereducated, overly propagandized, and far too distracted electorate.
What is the one issue?
Who shot J.R.? Duh.
Keep up.
The US is already fascist, the dictatorship is just of the ruling class rather than a single individual and their functionaries. It is currently getting you to rationalize supporting people committing genocide.
You can do something else: you can deligitimize support for genocide and do work against it.
Do you have a plan to radicalize enough people to topple the current regime by election day?
Or is your plan to tell me that I shouldn’t care that Trump is openly allied with people who want to commit genocide against queer people like me? Do you have a plan for your queer friends if he wins? Would you have me see their deaths as permissible if he wins? Or inevitable? Is your message of radicalization “you might die but it’s fine because the other government that wouldn’t have killed you was also fascist”?
Do you have a plan to radicalize enough people to topple the current regime by election day?
Why do I need to?
Or is your plan to tell me that I shouldn’t care that Trump is openly allied with people who want to commit genocide against queer people like me?
You should have solidarity with marginalized people facing genocide, not fall into the trap of pitting yourself against them because the political class threatens you. An injury to one is an injury to all.
Do you have a plan for your queer friends if he wins?
A plan? Friend, I have been organizing for trans liberation for years, probably longer than you have been politically aware. We will do the same work as always.
Would you have me see their deaths as permissible if he wins?
Of course not. Though I am not sure exactly which deaths you are referring to, nor the mechanism.
Or inevitable?
That is a difficult question to answer when I don’t know what you are specifically referring to. Many deaths of marginalized people would be preventable if we defeat oppression. Most are the product of policy and deprivation accumulated over decades of control under both parties. My homeless trans friends are not having a good time right now. They live in a blue city in a blue state under the Biden-Harris administration. One died earlier this year for reasons attributable to the material deprivations I mentioned before. They had a better life when Trump was in power and there were larger unemployment payouts and efforts to house people.
Is your message of radicalization “you might die but it’s fine because the other government that wouldn’t have killed you was also fascist”?
The only person pitting marginalized people against each other here is you, friend.
So, your argument boils down to… Trump and Kamala Harris have the same attitudes towards preventing violence against queer people? Or are you arghuing he would be better than her at protecting the lives of trans people?
Yeah I’m not defending this system you’ll note earlier I pointed out that they are genociders. I lamented that this is the reality we live in. I am an anarchist, a syndicalist and a marxist. I am in favor of the revolution. I also believe that mass murder is something that should be avoided whenever possible and that morality is affected by context. That the morality of sending one vote alone, one vote that does nothing to hurt the cause of revolutionary socialism, can be positive in that it works to prevent the status quo from being replaced by a significantly worse one that results in mass death of many more people. Your trans homeless friends defo have it rough, the queer americans in my community do too. They would have it decidedly worse if America was dictatorially controlled by christian white nationalists.
Jesus christ I’m so done with Liberals and I’m so done with people who see themselves as “enlightened” leftists. If I think that voting for a democratic government is a good idea, as it minimizes the likelihood of a total open fascist takeover of the US government and the placing of the US under martial law and enabling every political decision in the country to be made by a racist homophobic child rapist, then I’m supporting the neoliberal reality of America and killing homeless people or something. But if I point out that, Kamal Harris and Joe Biden are international war criminals who have committed acts of genocide by funding and arming a terrorist state actively committing the palestinian genocide, then I’m spreading misinformation or I don’t care about women or queer people.
I’m so done with arguing on this. I’m nearing a state of utter acceptance that Trump will takeover and probably allow christian white nationalists to start a queer holocaust on American soil, or else that Kamala will win and the neoliberal western democracies will continue to death spiral towards inevitable neo-nazi fascism, and in either case all the while Israel creates its own lebensraum throughout the middle-east by committing genocide on a scale literally not seen since world war 2. You tell me not to vote, to just magically hope that everyone else across the continent will rise up and overthrow the american neoliberal machine all at once by some kind of act of god or something. You tell me that it doesn’t matter if round ups start happening and trans people like me get thrown into mass prison camps and slaughtered. Don’t play this nonsense game acting as though you have no idea about Project 2025, no idea what the fascist right is planning for queer people. They aren’t subtle. They know if they get him in power there is literally NOTHING we can do to materially prevent them from making being trans point blank illegal, to have it classified as sex crime, and to use lists theyve made to round us all up en mass.
How in god’s name do you think you’re convincing anyone?
So, your argument boils down to… Trump and Kamala Harris have the same attitudes towards preventing violence against queer people?
It doesn’t, no. I said nothing like that. I would expound on that topic but I think it is counterproductive to entertain things I didn’t say.
Or are you arghuing he would be better than her at protecting the lives of trans people?
I am confused by your conclusions. Please refer to the things I said that led you to this conclusion. I think you are struggling to rationalize your perspective with mine, but I have a very different idea of power and electoralism than you do.
Yeah I’m not defending this system you’ll note earlier I pointed out that they are genociders. I lamented that this is the reality we live in.
Yes, the system must be overturned.
I am an anarchist, a syndicalist and a marxist. I am in favor of the revolution.
Nice! Good to meet you.
I also believe that mass murder is something that should be avoided whenever possible and that morality is affected by context. That the morality of sending one vote alone, one vote that does nothing to hurt the cause of revolutionary socialism
I agree with the idea of individual voting to be a bourgeois concern. I would gladly go on at length about building power in other, better ways, at least at another time.
I am intentionally focusing on a bourgeois moral argument because it gets to the core of how this audience thinks and how they are forgiving themselves for supporting genocide. Their identities are wrapped up in being the good people, and isn’t that, then at least the smart people doing their best to limit bad things. This is why the people who respond never address what I say directly, they just flail around looking for reasons to attack me or make some things up to make themselves feel right or try to make it about their advanced mathematical understanding of a lesser evil argument (that is a joke).
I focus in the bourgeois moralism for one simple reason: to agitate against normalization of genocide. Organizing work happens outside of a place like Lemmy Dot World.
Regarding your last point, there is something you should understand about what is happening here given your identification with the left. Liberals are announcing exactly what level of depravity they will accept for their political class. This one has the filter of racism and xenophobia to libricatw that process, but it is crystal clear: along this oath, there is no bottom. Consider what that means as US hegemony breaks down and climate change ramps up. Dems have already pivoted right in immigration and the climate. This is exactly the kind of thinking that will prevent the concept of revolution from even getting off the ground. You will be labelled a terrorist and your life forfeit by people with this attitude. Just like the genocide of Gaza, they will tell themselves and you that their hearts go out, but unfortunately you chose to belong to a terrorist org and it is actually funny that a Proud Boy shot you.
can be positive in that it works to prevent the status quo from being replaced by a significantly worse one that results in mass death of many more people.
This is “harm reduction” and lesser evil logic that is incompatible with the traditions you have identified with. It is also short-sighted. What do you think the trajectory is for a political class whose voters are all automatically supportive, including when they do genocide? Are they going to make any policy concessions? Why? There is a reason that they are the ones telling you to follow this logic. It is not revolutionary irganozations2 telling you to do this. It is not great theorists. It is big standard capitalist party sheepdogging. Genocide edition.
Your trans homeless friends defo have it rough, the queer americans in my community do too. They would have it decidedly worse if America was dictatorially controlled by christian white nationalists.
The Christian White Nationalists are enabled and promoted by the “harm reduction” vote. These are pseudo-foils serving the same masters. The neo-fascists are responding to degrading conditions and a society with ubiquitous reactionary marginalization narratives to leverage to divert pain from loss of status or material well-being into racism and xenophobia. Dems are particularly effective at degrading conditions while preventing a left outlet, while promoting their right flank as an “opponent” that justifies voting blue. And while doing so, they move right. This course is one of mutual amplification, not harm reduction.
Jesus christ I’m so done with Liberals and I’m so done with people who see themselves as “enlightened” leftists. If I think that voting for a democratic government is a good idea, as it minimizes the likelihood of a total open fascist takeover of the US government and the placing of the US under martial law and enabling every political decision in the country to be made by a racist homophobic child rapist, then I’m supporting the neoliberal reality of America and killing homeless people or something.
Do you think that? How? Who told you that was good reasoning? I am sure it was among liberals. I do not mean that as an insult, I mean that it is literally a liberal framing of electoralism and political power. It is how they coopt your energy.
I think I am running out if character space on this comment. I would also like to center Palestinians rather than an extended discussion of US electoralism in this particular thread, if that is okay with you. If you would like to continue this discussion or have me go over the rest of what you replied, I would be happy to do so in a different thread or via DMs.
Article is syndicated from The New Republic fwiw.
What’s the significance of that?
Disgusting. Make a case against the fucking genocide then to get more votes.
This is terrible. We need better candidates.
The only thing disgusting here is that you assume you’ve got a moral high ground and superiority over these Arab, Muslim, and Palestinian community leaders. I trust their opinion.
I’m tired of champagne socialists pretending to be all for progressive causes and then they act like they know better than us brown people and are our wiser saviors. As a brown person, that makes you no better than a Republican in my eyes. Stop using us as a cudgel and patronizing us instead of listening to us. Strip away your imperialist mindset and listen to AAPI people to try and win for once.
The “Group 13” from the Warsaw ghetto, led by Abraham Gancwajch, was the only organized group of Jewish collaboraters with the Germans on the basis of ideology.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_collaboration_with_Nazi_Germany
