Hey all. I’d like to open an official discussion regarding the upturning of the prior Hexbear party line on an :israel-cool: emote proper with the unambiguous Zionist flag.
I want to preface this by saying this is not in a ‘ceding the issue’ way. Over the past year I’ve been trying to engage in self-crit w/rt the chauvinism I’ve internalized growing up in a Liberal Zionist household, and my personal viewpoint on it did a 180 some months back, so I want to reopen this discussion proper in my personal capacities as Self-Appointed Emote Czar.
The reason it’s taken long enough beyond that is prior to July, I was essentially half-engaged with the site in order to finish out my degree. After that, it’s been mostly inertia of confirming with the admins and other /c/Judaism mods, as well as having to be rigorous about my job search personally giving me little free time to coordinate this.
I do not want to center myself in this conversation more than I inadvertently already have, so I will leave my own opinion on the issue as a comment rather than explaining further here.
The consensus we’ve roughly come to is to open up the discussion in an official manner for a day or so. After that, I’ll weigh the discussion in an entirely vibes-based manner (sorry Dean Norris enjoyers) and we’ll alter Hexbear party line on it accordingly.
We will be adding the isntreal cool emoji.
We are discussing the mod actions taken against z poster.
We are discussing taking mod actions against some of the users making reactionary statements regarding the addition of the emoji.
We express our strongest and most heartfelt apologies to all the users but especially our Arab and Muslim users for this. We should have added the emoji months ago.
We will have an open floor meta post to try and work through the tension but I want to humbly ask everyone to please try and speak to each other in good faith while taking a charitable interpretation of other users.
As discussed in the ND meta post we should try to be patient with each other with regard to written communication.
This is a justifiably so very important and emotionally elevated topic and we truly want to do right by the users as well as the volunteers of the site.
Please keep the discussion to specific mod actions rather than general/vague meta comments.
There are those on the mod team that appretiate zposter and those that dislike his hostility and tendency to take the least charitable interpretation. You can see his moderation history on the origonal zposter account as well as the current one to see he has had actions taken not related to his stance on the emoji.
In closing the only finalized thing is adding the emoji, I would like us to try and discuss the other topics without getting too hostile at each other please
The users of the site demand that the mods of the site face consequences for their behavior. Nakoichi constantly goes too far, and too much of their moderation is based on personal vendettas. It is absolutely not appropriate for them to be a mod on Hexbear.
The time has come.
There’s no point having an extensive code-of-conduct that says mods are held to a higher standard than users and given less leeway if it’s all just bullshit. Ultimately, it seems what it boils down to is “It’s a club, and you’re not in it, so we’ll ban you for personal shit”. I thought we were supposed to be doing better than that?
For what it’s worth Nakochi was removed as a sitemod due to the statements referenced in this post and the other.
Nakochi did not siteban Zposter and we have stopped requiring self crit posts as it reduces the sentiment of those that make them on their own.
We are discussing further actions but due to timezones that takes time.
I appreciate the work, but, no more half measures? Why are we kicking the can down the road? Personal attachments? Harden your hearts; if they can behave as a user they can stay, but continuing to allow them moderator powers even in a reduced capacity is just asking to continue this saga.
Don’t trust someone who has proven they can’t moderate to moderate…
Because we try to give ample time for all the mod team to discuss this as we have for all actions taken against mods/admins
We have also done this for prominent users like zposter
I mean this in good faith, but why though? Is this just symbolic but will nevertheless result in his removal as mod?
Even Nakochi has said for admins to remove them as mod if that’s what the people want and it’s pretty clear that’s what people are requesting. I didn’t have any opinions about Nakochi before this, other than seemingly unnecessarily aggressive at times, but it’s pretty clear that a lot of people have issues with them remaining as mod and Nakochi accepted the demand. That along with the Zionist flag emoji will seemingly settle this. What else is left to discuss?
they can’t let me win. it tears them up inside to realize i was right again
Those stinky lowlife minority masses don’t know what they’re speaking about, we the highly intelligent admins always know whats best, we only speak in objective terms, surely they will fold under our completely unnecessary police-like bureaucracy, subdue yourselves at once peasant scum
It is possible if we made a separate post “should Nak be a mod?” We would get many in favor of them but that isn’t how we have done mod actions against mods in the past. As proven by the amount of alts doing that type of voting for something like mod actions is easily manipulated
I’m not committing to a course of action right here and now but all the modteam is aware of this post and can read the users issues with Nakoichi
Okay, and I would maybe agree with that if Nakochi was even rejecting calls to be removed, but Nakochi already explicitly conceded the call in this very post. So, again, what else is left to discuss? Are admins/mods going to have sole say in the decision since a popular vote can be ‘easily manipulated’? What’s the process for appeal if the admin/mod team disagrees with users at large?
The point is to give everyone involved, in this case their fellow mods, a chance to speak before taking an action. There will be action today I stand by that, so is it too much to ask for a couple more hours?
idk all this mod drama but y’all give way too much leeway to users like z and ulysses so it’s not just a mods-for-mods problem
No the siteban came from directly from the “Holocaust Emoji” admin herself
I still cant get over “holocaust emoji”. Jesus christ that is the most insane phrase I have seen for some time. And to deploy it against their fellow hexbears what is this shit
A zionist method of conflating criticism of Israel with antisemitism
The worst offenders here are mods and admins though.
Zposter was repeatedly incredibly hostile
and it worked. You’re fixing the fucking problem.
1000 posters being nice and no change.
Me being an asshole and suddenly problem solved
They were not speaking as the mod/admin team but rather themselves and since the post was seeking input from everyone they responded. In the mod channels I’ve asked for the same thing I asked here
Mods using their authority to win arguments or treating others poorly is a pattern, it is not just a thing in this thread.
It is beyond the scope of this post but I would like to see more specific examples of this so we can address it in a follow up meta post
Oh so when I lodged an official complaint with mods about Nakoichi making suicide baiting and death threats and they hemmed and hawed that was just their personal opinion? Even though I specifically requested to speak with a moderator to lodge a complaint?
It was received and they were removed as a site-mod/admin for that
Then why was I never made aware of this, never apologize to, and the mod I brought it up to just did some cop-talk dodging it and that was it?
I don’t know who you brought it up to, honestly there is a consistent churn and addition of mods and admins. I don’t think we have made a habit of announcing who is on or not on the admin team due to the specific and actionable death threats made to us as a result of doxxing.
It was in the news comm to the thousand_snakes fellow, who hemmed and hawed and said I was seeing things and then did nothing. I received no further response. It’s been linked in the em_poc thread.
Thank you for mentioning that I went and read that thread as well as the others on this topic, I’ve forwarded this to the mod chat to discuss. Reading the comments between your alt and Nakoichi that they misread your comment thinking you were placing BE on the same level as those other people and responded with the removed comment telling you to touch grass 6 ft under. That violates the CoC, especially holding moderators to a higher standard. We will be discussing this and taking action
Patience and good faith should not be a one sided ask. Remove Nakoichi from mod and enforce a self crit post
I am asking it from everyone and have made similar statements in the Matrix mod chat.
Self crit is no longer mandatory due to the fact that forcing it removes the genuineness of it
It should’ve been added when it was first requested.
But it wasn’t, for the reasons ysf said, of thousands of emojis making one mistake is human.
I’m not really good with words, but what I’m trying to say is that the mod team needs to admit it was a mistake from the start (and yeah there was context and reasons and whatever)
I am absolutely against the line that says “we have seen the true nature of Israel these past 2 years and now we have come around to adding the emoji” or that “the genocide gave us a chance to grapple with our own personal hangups and feelings”, I know this is not exactly what is being said and maybe I’m a bit uncharitable, but it’s how it comes across. Don’t use this as the official line.
And yeah I understand that some comrades might have had some milquetoast or even zionist positions before October 7 and their antizionism has developed since, but that is their own personal story.
Like I told Lyudmila, the Nakba happened in 1948.
I thought it was clear that we think it was a mistake, and that the self-crit expressed in the post body was giving context to why the mistake was made. Yes the emoji could have been made 4 years ago, but was not. It was a mistake and one that we regret. That being said there was never a ban on burning flag of isntreal posting in fact almost every news mega has those images in comments, the sticking point was having the person who in charge of the emojis personally make and implement it.
That part is clear.
Should have, please read my first reply again.
Personally, I am not trying to get anyone to do self-crit or explain their positions or whatever. I just took issue with a specific part of your statement and tried to explain why. And like I said, I hope my comments don’t come across as hostile, comrade.
Literally nobody else has the technology to upload a .png file
So you were unable to attach the image of a burning isntreal flag to a comment or post?
You all turn into such bad faith little shits when you do your hasbara routine
What are you talking about?
Do you even like this site?
I like the users here, the 90% in this thread agreeing with me are all pretty cool.
I don’t like the admins and mods who repeatedly harass me, smear me, lie about me and who make zionist arguments in bad faith and then pretend they didn’t the next day. You hate me so much you reflexively became zionists to spite me. It’s quite incredible.
You really want users here to believe that this one person was the chokepoint, the hold up, and you were totally getting around to it but that one person was just busy? Come on it take like 30 seconds for anybody on your team to do if you cared. Instead you banned people and locked threads. Over and over. Dozens of times. Never once have you admitted all these wrongdoings and zionist actions.
You are actually scapegoating a jew here to try and get out of this. Like you couldn’t make this shit up. Who’s the anti-semite now? Having an inactive mod eat your sins for you cause you can’t own up to your years long zionism and suppression of people who told you this hundreds of times?
I don’t hate you, me and other admins have spoken up for you for years from the first zposter to, https://hexbear.net/u/zenzposter360 and https://hexbear.net/u/Spectre_of_Z_poster and https://hexbear.net/u/ZZ_SloppyTop
I’m sorry you have experienced all of that, and this bad faith engagement/least charitable intrepretation is an exact symptom of the site culture that is vital to change.
Are you innocent of this?
Do you think that we want different material outcomes?
For years people have complained that your messages speak the truth however the delivery is aggressive, you have received years of grace. Could you consider returning some to me as we try to find a solution here?
Removed by mod
disingenuous to zposter? I just wanted it to be clear that there was never a ban on posting images of the isntreal flag being burned and that this discussion is specifically about an emoji. I acknowledge that the mod action taken against zposter is related to it but I think it has been established that he has a history with the mod team and the siteban was not about the emoji
My comment is not directed towards ysf or trying to relitigate what happened. I’m objecting to your statement that it should’ve been added months ago, I’m really not okay with people saying that the genocide happening is the reason why we should do this.
Again, I’m not trying to call ysf out but I also don’t see the point you’re making. And I hope this comment doesn’t come across as hostile.
it’s getting added right now because of z poster raising a stink, and the mods and admins profoundly showing their zionist asses in response, and the userbase having a backlash in response. That’s the reason. Or do they expect us to believe it’s a total coincidence that suddenly it’s a top priority?
Way to pat yourself on the back buddy. Or maybe you just forgot you were talking on this profile as yourself and not pretending to be a different person.
You’re not that important. Stop crediting yourself for shit.
The real reason this topic came up again was because of the federal courts making it a form of “racial discrimination” to burn it, prompting the community to reevaluate how we’ve approach it.
It’s not, the point is that ysf did all the emojis, and did not want to add it when it was first requested. A couple other mods/admins agreed with her perspective so we didn’t go around her out of respect
I think we are on the same page then, and I’d like it to be stated that the emoji should’ve been added once it was requested. If you wanna provide the context for why that didn’t happen, yeah sure.
The context is in the post body and the fact that we did not want to go around her and the mods/admins that agreed with her to make the emoji when the pictures in comments were allowed.
We’re kinda talking past each other, and I bear some of the blame, like I said, I’m not good with words. I know the context comrade and I was there when ysf objected to adding the emoji.
What I was asking for is for you to amend this statement:
And I’ve explained my objection towards it so I won’t go into that again, but it should read " We should have added the emoji once it was requested."
Maybe you think I’m making a big deal out of nothing, but in this very thread some comrades were mentioning the genocide while trying to make the case for why we gotta add the emoji. I know they are well-meaning and I’m not calling them out, but I think we need to be clear about this.
What I meant is that I don’t care one way or another.
Ok I’m sorry for my part in talking past you and agree with your change. I’ll edit it shortly. Thank you!
Will we also be changing :aus-delenda-est:? I and several other users have noted in this thread that having a bigger flame on this emoji apparently in reference to the wildfires is in very bad taste; Jabril even strikingly said that laughing at the wildfires is “much more in bad taste than the topic at hand”.
Also, a number of users here seem to be saying that WhyEssEff has lost the “Mandate of Heaven” as Emote Czar, so to speak. There seems to be some amount of demand for a more democratic process in selecting and changing emojis overall. This is something I’ve been wondering about and secretly wanting for a while.
The process is that people post emojis to this community and ysf adds the upvoted ones to the emoji picker when she has time. We can change the aus-delenda-est emoji as well
In other words, the process of emoji selection will not change, but aus-delenda-est will be changed.
What suggestion do you have for changing it?
For the emote selection process, designing a system like that isn’t really my own field of expertise, but if I had to come up with any suggestion it would maybe just be having more people with the ability to add emojis — I guess you could say an Emote Presidium instead of a single Emote Czar, if you will. But other people might have other ideas.
For aus-delenda-est, I see you (or someone else) has already changed it. I’m assuming this is an interim change, though.
Myself and the other admins/dev team can add them which we will do so going forward
deleted by creator
Here’s a deal from you to me
I’ll go away forever if you make the flag emoji :Z:
and remove from moderation one Nakoichi
I don’t want you to go away forever. Why are you trying to extort me?
it’s not extortion to ask that you do your job and duty. you’ve allowed zionism and racism to fester under your nose. you all banned principled users and random bystanders instead of facing any accountability until it became too much of a cover-up and everyone witnessed it and you had to do damage control. Why did this even happen? How have you let your mods and admins get this rotten? Own up to this shit already. Your apologies are lukewarm and halfcooked. You haven’t cleaned house. Your little zionist imp is still running around making absurd zionist arguments off their leash, still doubling down, still no apologies for suicide baiting. Admit fault. Apologize. Is it really so hard?
You have an admin calling this new emoji of ours a “holocaust emoji”, repeating the now removed comment of ProfessorOwlPhD (still not banned btw!). That’s acceptable to you?
“I will stop making alts if you make me a Z emoji” I’m pretty sure that is exactly what coercion is, so not specifically extortion.
They were not innocent bystanders, how is it a cover up if we are talking about it now?
You have admitted to making multiple alts and have a history of doing so. I’m happy to unban anyone who is innocent and have done so.
The site culture is the site’s we have tried in the past to shape the culture and it doesn’t work. I have just as much power as you in that regard and as stated we are discussing what actions to take about the unexamined zionist brainworms
Yeah you are just a poor wittle user with no power to remove the zionist individuals on your hand selected team
I’ve never wielded the admin power with no input from the users and the mod team. The mod application has always been open to every user to apply and be a part of it. Regardless of differences
A system is what it produces.
looks at “holocaust emoji” and “you just want to burn the star of david don’t cha” and “go touch grass six feet under”
hmmmm
Just because someone has a “M” or “A” does not mean they are not allowed to make statements about their personal opinions. Did hexbear make you write the comments that were removed outside of this specific topic or the DM harassment you did?