Regarding fear, our results show that this emotion is higher in the catcalling situation, however, there is no significant difference with the control condition. This suggests that experiencing an urban underground environment at night from a woman’s perspective is inherently fear-inducing, independent of explicit harassment.
Does it, though? It would be better if they had a control group where participants used a male avatar. My understanding is that both groups used female avatars:
In the experimental condition, the avatars used typical Italian catcalling expressions (documented in newspaper articles and sociological research on the topic of verbal street harassment), while in the control group (condition), the avatars posed general questions to the participants.
I have no doubt that it can be scary for a woman to be in this setting in real life. However, I’d like to see scientific proof that this feeling can be specifically induced in men who are controlling female characters in VR. Right now, it’s more of an assumption, isn’t it? As a gamer, I know that the location itself can be scary, that sound design (music, ambient sounds, voice acting) can be frightening, and that trying VR for the first time can also be uncomfortable.
I’d also be worried about the reaction being tainted by the target not being your desire. Like, I’d imagine a straight dude will be more uncomfortable being catcalled by a dude than a lady (regardless of whether their avatar is a woman or not). Obviously the study is a bit more robust than that, but it’s still an inherent issue hard to circumvent just with VR.
What does that have to do with anything? The only reason I’d be more comfortable with a woman cat-calling me is because I’m significantly bigger than most women and my position in society lends me a lot more power and confidence. Even if a dude did it I’d be way better off than if I were a woman so I can brush it off more easily. I’m also not attracted to every woman I see so what does it matter?
Besides, turn that around and ask yourself if you really think that a straight woman being cat-called by a man makes them feel any better. In fact, maybe the inherent lack of attraction found between a male participant and a male cat-caller actually makes the point that much stronger. “I’m not attracted to this person and yet they continue to pressure me and that makes me feel all the more unsafe”.
Why would it be assumption? Then it wouldn’t be a study? They tested for something and got predictable results. Assumption is when you don’t do that.
I looked at the comments.
I knew it was a mistake, I did it anyways.
It sure was a mistake.
I would look at the study, while the problem is 100% real and anyone with any empathy should realize is real, to say the study supports it is a bit far fetched. Looking at the scenarios they created and the avatars, it’s all a bit uncanny valley and backrooms sort of feeling. Sort of ps2 graphics but in vr.
E: I think the conclusion puts it best, vr is a good tool for showing people what a lot of women have to deal with, and how terrible it can feel. It’s like rp for people who have trouble empathizing or don’t get why it matters.
I just had surgery and have grown a new appreciation for the fear women can feel. Im a taller dude and lifted 4-5 days a week, so im fairly bigger than other guys my size, but since my surgery im so fucking fragile and have no ability to defend myself. I live in a city and walking around at night has become a whole new experience. Before I never worried much being out alone, but now I have a constant anxiety, a fear that someone will come and overpower me. Hurt me.
I know its not entirely the same, but the fear of others in this capacity definitely makes me much more empathetic towards what I used to view as overreaction.
Ladies, I apologize.
Lady here.
You don’t have to be sorry, just stay safe and keep trying to be a good person. I wish you well on your recovery.
edit: It’s not so much about being overpowered, though that is a thing, as the mental exhaustion from having to deal with so many people who think you owe them something. The book “Verbal Judo” helped me way more than self-defense classes, I recommend it, it’s the art of de-escalation by being snarky and delightful.
This looks more like sexism dressed up as science, rather than science.
If the men really felt that they were in the body of a woman, then I would expect the overwhelming emotion to be gender dysphoria.
If not, then they answered whatever they felt they should. That’s a well-known problem in such studies (eg Social Desirability Bias). Maybe they answered what they felt the interviewer wanted to hear. Or maybe they just regurgitated sexist stereotypes. Imagine putting the avatar in a dirty kitchen and asking: Don’t you feel an overwhelming desire to clean?
But suppose that this is a good “empathy building” exercise. What is the take-away? Say, some years down the road, these men are hiring employees. There are qualified female candidates, but the job requires working at night, or maybe being alone with male clients. Hmm. Benevolent sexism is still sexism.
A couple of years ago I played VR paintball with my gf’s avatar without a mic and got to experience first hand what it feels like to be aggressively hit on. I didn’t want to play with a female avatar from there on.
But that was real. It didn’t artificially reify stereotypes of women being scared in subway stations at night. The take-away was simply that this stuff is annoying.
I thought of something: Anorexia. That condition where people, mainly young women, starve themselves to death. This is often claimed to be the result of unrealistic beauty standards in media. Women are also more often diagnosed with phobias. Why aren’t we talking more about a possible role for stereotypes here.
FWIW, I am very skeptical about the role of beauty standards in anorexia. Vague societal expectations seem a poor explanation for something as drastic as starving yourself to death, especially given how most people are overweight. But I am also sure that my behavior would be different in many ways, if I wasn’t expected to “man up”.
Your takeaway from my experience was that it was annoying? I felt attacked, vulnerable and defenseless, to say it was mere annoying is an underestimation you seem to make quite quickly. Since you are interested in anorexia I might recommend starting from the wikipedia article that lists the causes linked to it, which are numerous in addition to societal pressure.
What made it so bad?
Welcome. Welcome to our study. You have either chosen or been chosen…
Similar social experiments include the same fear from being on the receiving end of society when people in real life dressed as Muslims, Jews, homeless people, even as black people (much harder to do). There is such trusism as walking in the shoes of another person. Living as them for a week would be most interesting.
Black Like Me was eye opening for a lot of people. Even John Howard Griffin, who did blackface to understand the black southern experience, and already fought for civil rights, was surprised by how he was treated.
If I remember it right, at the beginning of his journey he had to beg and find help because he was refused service when trying to cash his travellers checks.
Any normal person can experience some level of fear in this situation, not just women. I would also experience some level of anxiety even with a fully loaded handgun in pocket.
Catcalling is uncomfortable in many situations, so these are not exactly connected between each other except for both being some negative experience in most of cases.
Your point?
You don’t need a study with crossdressing to understand these 2 facts. It is nice that they have done it but it was not necessary.
Yes it is.
Right, but as a 6’-5” dude I feel a lot less anxiety. When I feel any anxiety I can ignore it and remind myself that the shit I’m conjuring up just doesn’t actually happen here. Meanwhile, my friend has been followed home multiple times and all she did was be vaguely kind to a man. One time she didn’t even ever talk to the dude, he just saw her at the bar and decided that was his night to be a gargantuan piece of filth!
No one is actually going to mug me here but I know many people who constantly need to be on edge around men, even people who are supposed to be their friends. It’s not about feeling anxious, it’s about understanding that women experience all the same anxieties and also have to deal with a bunch of other, far more real, threats all the while being often physically smaller/weaker.
You’re not wrong that both genders experience anxiety but you have just entirely missed the point. When the women in your life deal with this shit I hope you approach the situation with more compassion than whatever drove you to writing that stupid comment.
—
On another note, carrying a weapon actually makes you more anxious. You’d think it would give a feeling of safety but it really doesn’t, so you best be damn sure you have a real good reason to be packing heat.
Here’s the video of the study: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ztqLcoaDlHc
An interesting change in perspective.
But because Lemmy is full of ex-redditors, the comments here are painfully predictable.
Lemmy is also full of humans, with their filthy human thoughts and opinions.
If we continue the family tree we can conclude that Lemmy is also full of ex 4chan users too. This doesn’t necessarily mean that most of them are toxic/annoying or etc.
Can confirm, frequented the /x/ board in the early 2000s.
Me being annoying is arguable though.
Now they are impure and must be cleansed with gay conversion therapy.
One-time crossdressing for scientific/artistic/acting purposes cannot be considered something bad. I suppose that you forgot to mention that this is a joke /j or a sarcasm /s.
It is absurdist sarcasm.
Ok but where do I sign up to be one of the cat callers
What pleasure do you get from being a jerk, exactly?
Funny.
at the local animal shelter maybe, or at the vet, idk
I’m sure this badly done study won’t trigger knee jerk malicious comments from misandrists who feel validated.
Was the study carried out on men who actually catcall? Otherwise the results are completely useless.
Completely useless, says the random Internet man about a study of random men
My point being that men who do the catcalling might not actually feel the same as decent men.
It’s a study, not a solution. The goal wasn’t to change the opinion of catcallers.
My point being that men who do the catcalling might not actually feel the same as decent men.
Here’s the link to the actual article.
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-025-19418-4.pdf
Paper itself above. Need a deeper reading with my notes but on the surface the stats are so-so. They check normality, but don’t confirm linearity (use of pmcc will not be valid without - there are also a few other conditions to check for hypothesis testing with PMCC if memory serves), use of a continuous test (PMCC, ANOVA, unpaired t’s) for discrete (likert) data is also little controversial, but generally condoned.
As for the conclusion, not a psych phd so I’ll assume they know their stuff!
my personal rule of thumb is that if it’s published in Nature, Cell, or another well-regarded journal, the statistical and experimental methodologies are almost certainly solid. Do you think I should adjust that rule going forward?
Honestly, I always poke the stats no matter how good the journal. The best way to read any article is as a skeptic (the onus is on the writer to prove their point), and any small irregularity is something to be queried.
No matter how good the journal, it’s only as good as the reviewers, and reviewers are humans too. Odds are a paper in nature is all above board, but I’m somewhat of a pedant when it comes to checking test conditions.
i do that to, i also try to find most recent research, anything older than 5+years is suspect, because they always come with revised papers in newer studies/research eventually.
In some fields (e.g. mathematics) old papers hold up well. However, in fields like psychology where the landscape shifts a lot that’s probably a good shout!
sometimes, but they have retracted quite a few papers based on misleading papers, or even AI rgenerated. also because it can mislead readers into thinking “oh this is the sole cause and effect” but not potential alternative scenarios.
Thank you!
Turns out walking through a sketchy area and being harassed are scary no matter what genitalia you have.
Yeah, but the point here is that they were posing as women with female looking avatars. One guy even says that he would have reacted differently if it was male:
Another participant reported that he would have reacted differently had he been in the role of a man, but since he was embodying a female character, he chose instead to walk away.
I wish they had tested all 8 scenarios: Male/female participant, male/female body, catcalled/not catcalled.
Because even as a man I don’t feel comfortable being alone at a subway station at night. Nor can I imagine would I then enjoy being catcalled.
I wonder how much your VR body seen in a mirror affects this. My gut says not a lot but more data would’ve been great.
Now, if your own VR body does affect your reaction there must be bodies which maximize/minimize reactions. That’d be fun to test. You don’t even have to limit yourself to human bodies, what if you’re, say, a dinosaur (with body height still being the same)?
While my first reaction was the same - “how would they react in male avatars?”, that doesn’t seem to be the point at all of this study but rather the potential of VR to change the subjects behaviour in real life by helping empathy along.
Introduction
[…]
Peck et al.13 found that White participants, after embodying a Black avatar, showed a reduction in implicit racial bias.
This principle has been extended to the context of gender-based violence.
Seinfeld et al.14 had male offenders embody a female victim of domestic violence, finding that the VR experience significantly improved their ability to recognize fear in female facial expressions—a deficit common in violent offenders15.
Similarly, other studies using 360° videos and immersive scenarios of sexual harassment have reported marked increases in empathy and changes in violent attitudes among participants16.
[…]
These findings collectively affirm the potential of VR as a rehabilitative tool for enhancing emotional understanding and mitigating harmful behaviors.Building on this foundation, the present study utilizes immersive VR to provide male participants with a firsthand experience of catcalling.
While previous research has often focused on overt violence, our goal is to investigate the affective response to a more commonplace form of street harassment. We hypothesize that this embodied experience will elicit morally salient emotions like disgust and anger19,20,21.
By inducing this moral discomfort, the intervention aims to foster self-awareness and encourage a reconsideration of the behavior’s impact22, serving as a potential strategy to promote behavioral change.That’s fair, I only really glossed over the study.
But still, have they actually collected data to support illiciting these emotions works as a “potential strategy to promote behavioral change”? In the study, I haven’t found anything like a pre and post experiment survey showing a different attitude towards catcalling. In my mind that’s required to demonstrate the VR experiment is such a strategy.
And catcalled by M & F I guess?
But that would be actual science and not whatever the slop study in the article is.
I feel like if you’re going to slag off the study as “slop” you should at least follow the links to the study itself where you can see that they did in fact have a control group who were posed general questions instead of catcalling. They didn’t switch genders because that wasn’t the purpose of the study.
They didn’t switch genders because that wasn’t the purpose of the study.
The purpose of the study being to get the results they wanted to get. That’s not science.
It’s basically a study of “do people like being assaulted”. No one does regardless of gender, but they took that as women don’t like being assaulted and men pretending to be women don’t like being assaulted. Therefore men pretending to be women in VR don’t like to be assaulted.
What sort of conclusion is that.
It would help to read the study so you don’t have to be wrong about things.
I did read it. It’s very very long though have you read all of it, I started to get bored when they started showing really complicated diagrams with no real explanation as to how they came to those conclusions.
Social studies is like that, it’s very much couched in the sort of science that you would normally expect of physics or engineering but all it’s conclusions are fuzzy but they come out with these concrete graphs to explain very personal responses. I find it to be intellectually dishonest to suggest that you can represent the world like that
“I don’t understand it so it’s wrong,” isn’t a great way to prove a point.
Social studies? Do you mean the neurology? Or the psychology? You know “fuzzy logic” is a form of math, right?
Maybe you got bored when they explained what metrics they used and how they applied them.
Thats a slop study through and through
I can where to say this. This is anything but science. Entertainment at best.
