• db0@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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    3 months ago

    Not being “united” with Marxists (or libs) doesn’t mean we can’t work with them to bash the fash. You’re conflating two different things. Rejecting left unity simply means we don’t accept your narrative about geopolitics nor do we accept your blanket leadership.

    In other words, you’re welcome to bash the fash with us, so long as you don’t expect us to do unreasonable things like praise “aes” in the process or vote for you in elections.

    • Awoo [she/her]@hexbear.net
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      3 months ago

      Rejecting left unity simply means we don’t accept your narrative about geopolitics nor do we accept your blanket leadership.

      When you say you reject left unity but want to temporarily ally the way that comes across is “we view you as enemies, but the lesser evil”.

      The problem here is that you are setting us all up for some sort of failure with this approach. I see the following as the only possible scenarios:

      1. No left unity, only temporary alliance. Capitalism is overthrown.

      Post-revolution communists will look on the anarchists with deep suspicion because your line will have always been this clear “we are enemies but temporarily allied” thing you’re pushing. The result of this will be communists and anarchists fighting and killing each other afterwards, the result of this will be anarchists getting wiped out by superior organisation as has historically occurred. Not a result I want.

      2. No left unity, only temporary alliance. Fascists win.

      We fuck around and find out. We all die to fascists.

      3. Left unity. Fascists win.

      Welp at least we tried.

      4a. Left unity. Capitalism is overthrown.

      Everything goes great but something strains unity afterwards and a breakdown happens anyway. We kill each other. Anarchists get wiped out by superior organisation as has historically occurred. Not a result I want but I acknowledge it is still a possibility.

      4b. Left unity. Capitalism is overthrown.

      Everything goes great, it all works out. Anarchists get their autonomous zone and communists construct socialist state. Communists leave the anarchists alone because they are sincere friends and there is actual trust. Anarchists don’t fuck around and make themselves distrusted by the communists so the socialist state has no reason to delete their autonomous zone as it does not make itself appear as a potential threat. This works out best for everyone.


      What I’m trying to get into your head is that your lack of sincere friendship, your lack of real unity, it has no positive outcomes at all. The best possible outcome if we examine the potential scenarios is unity and sincere friendship. That is the outcome I want most.

      • db0@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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        3 months ago

        “fall in line or be purged after the revolution” is not the convincing argument you think it is. Even if I were to accept your revisionist takes, it would still lead back to capitalism, which is also what has historically occurred. No, I’d rather forge the anarchist way and try doing prefiguration instead. MLs are free to join us and build the new world in the shell of the old. I have no problem offering sincere friendship through that.

        Also note that I’ve never been hostile to y’all, but I can’t say the opposite is true given the incredible amounts of bad faith and attempted bullying I have to tolerate whenever I interact here. Hell, just now I just came to point out a literal fact, and you turned it into a condescending scolding

        • Awoo [she/her]@hexbear.net
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          3 months ago

          “fall in line or be purged after the revolution” is not the convincing argument you think it is.

          This is a disingenuous way to read what I’ve said and highlights the point I’m making, YOU are the one making us into enemies.

          At no point did I say this. What I said was that if two sides distrust one another, particularly because one side is declaring the other only temporary alliance but ultimately an enemy, then the other side is left with literally no choice but to see that as a threat. It’s a sincere combative stance. One that forces the other side to react appropriately to being regarded as an enemy.

          I don’t want that position at all. I’ve clearly stated that. I want left unity. I want sincere completely and total friendship.

          You are the one calling the other side the enemy and then complaining when I point out that doing this will cause the other side to take an appropriate position to you when you are openly declaring yourself as a threat.

          The appropriate position to foster the best outcome is complete and total commitment to friendship, trust and love. Any misguided attempt to foster combativeness will result in elements (of both sides) becoming combative, and that combativeness will fester into real world actions, and those real world actions will fester into real world reactions.

          Also note that I’ve never been hostile to y’all

          You are being hostile by declaring us an enemy in this way. Either we make real and concrete commitments to friendship and go forwards with a real and sincere attempt to make it work or it is guaranteed to end in horrible failure in one way or another. The only outcome that has a good possibility is fully committing to making things work together for all of us, and I completely acknowledge that might still fail, but it’s still the only one that has a possible good outcome for all.

          • db0@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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            3 months ago

            I disagree, I’m not making you the enemy. I just won’t follow your tactics or your rhetoric. If you think that not doing what you think I should be doing, makes me your enemy, that’s on you.

            We can certainly do make clearly friendly attempt to make it work. Y’all join us in doing anarchist prefiguration and it’s all gravy.

            As strange as it may be, I didn’t come to lemmy predisposed against hexbears, but it was y’all direct actions over the last 3 years that have made me suspicious and cautious against y’all. This should tell you something. You’re not winning hearts and minds with your overall behaviour which is of course counter productive for revolutionary purposes.

            Honestly it really all just sounds terribly vague. “we should all just be friends” can’t be forced. What are the steps you’re taking to nurture such friendship with anarchists like me? Because let me tell you, revisionism about the lessons anarchists learned when allying with MLs and bullying when we speaks against “AES” ain’t it.

            • purpleworm [none/use name]@hexbear.net
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              3 months ago

              As strange as it may be, I didn’t come to lemmy predisposed against hexbears, but it was y’all direct actions over the last 3 years that have made me suspicious and cautious against y’all. This should tell you something. You’re not winning hearts and minds with your overall behaviour which is of course counter productive for revolutionary purposes.

              I would encourage you not to overgeneralize from your own feelings. One of could rightly apply that first sentence to you, and surely you would see how asinine it would be. There are a number of leftists, including on your instance, who received a hostile introduction to us but who do in fact like us, and many more who at least don’t bear your very obvious animosity (and the same is also held by most of HB regarding most of your users).

              • db0@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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                3 months ago

                One of could rightly apply that first sentence to you, and surely you would see how asinine it would be.

                Hexbears constantly make such statements, based in uncharitable interpretations, particularly in places like slop and get highly upvoted for it. But my greater point is that if one’s plan is a large leftist umbrella, it’s counter-productive to follow strategies which alienate a lot of anarchists who do in fact share my anti-“left-unity” thoughts.

                And sure, there’s m@tes who don’t get on hexbear shitlist.Typically those tend to be the ones who don’t take as dim view of “left unity” as other anarchists, or who know to keep their thoughts to themselves at least. I just don’t see this inter-instance relationship as overall healthy however.

                • purpleworm [none/use name]@hexbear.net
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                  3 months ago

                  This now appears to be a different and much worse argument. The criticism is now that we aren’t winning the hearts and minds of anarchists who specifically reject taking a cooperative approach with MLs prima facie anyway. The only thing for someone like me to do in that position is argue against their position rather than cater to it, there’s no “appealing to the anti-left unity anarchist demographic”.

                  It probably isn’t something you find encouraging, but I, like lots of HBs, do think the inter-instance relationship is a good thing. We’ve got lots of people who are comrades on your instance and the others can just block us, so it’s not too big a deal.

                  • db0@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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                    3 months ago

                    As I wrote elsewhere in here, anarchists like me don’t reject cooperation, we reject being co-opted or used to further ML tactics. That being said, if the plan is to strengthen left unity and/or to convert more people into Marxism, the bullying and “dirtbag left” behaviour typical in hexbear is not conductive. And surely, even people like me who are cautious about ML betrayals, could be led to change their mind through good interactions, no? However in my case at least, the opposite has been the case, I was actually more positive towards MLs, before hexbears attempted to bully me.

            • Awoo [she/her]@hexbear.net
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              3 months ago

              I disagree, I’m not making you the enemy. I just won’t follow your tactics or your rhetoric. If you think that not doing what you think I should be doing, makes me your enemy, that’s on you.

              You can’t be serious.

              If I told you that we’re only temporary allies but I’m not allowing you to have any kind of leadership and I do not regard this as ‘unity’, you would interpret that as me saying when the conditions of our alliance are over that I intend to kill you, you would melodramatically say “like the bolsheviks” or something like that.

              You would interpret it that way for me. I don’t see why you think I shouldn’t interpret it that way when you say it.

              but it was y’all direct actions over the last 3 years that have made me suspicious and cautious against y’all.

              Actions like?

              • db0@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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                3 months ago

                We’re anarchists. We don’t look for “leadership” in that way. For me only the actions matter. If you performed anarchist praxis and build prefigurative structures I wouldn’t have a reason not to see you as an ally. If you put your effort into capturing state power to wield it over others hierarchically, It would make me suspicious and eventually bring us in direct opposition.

                Actions such as constant bad faith, 1000-comment pile ons, misrepresentation and last but not least, ableism. Hell, in the comment alone, other hexbears can’t help themselves but barge in and leave snarky or malicious comments.

                • Awoo [she/her]@hexbear.net
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                  3 months ago

                  This reply is stretching the limitations of good faith engagement, and my belief that you’re engaging in good faith.

                  • db0@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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                    3 months ago

                    I’m not sure if you’re talking about my full reply or my 4 word short reply which I sent by mistake because of a misclick