Sigh. Just say you don’t know shit about mental health and move on with your performative outrage for any time you hear the word incel. I don’t have time to teach an idiot about trauma informed perspectives and it’s clear you’re not looking to learn anything, so I’m going to ask you to shut up and listen to the mental health professionals, like the one’s in the article who did the study. Because your little rage fit over incels is NOT more informed than studies conducted by professionals, and in fact is much more regressive so congrats for a perspective that make the problem you pretend to care about worse. Must feel nice to teach those incels a lesson though I’m sure you showed them.
For real, like damn, if you want there to be less incels, well we gotta fix it, and unless their personal solution is to just round em up and throw em in camps, then maybe we have to listen to the people who spent time studying this. Shocking. I swear they just wanna feel mad and superior.
it’s on them to fix themselves. not society. I’m alone, divorced, but I still don’t blame women or society. that’s the incel’s problem: lack of personal accountability, entitlement to a woman, society blaming.
it takes two to make a relationship, and I’m tired of my fellow man being offended at having to work at having a relationship
Ah I see and because it’s their responsibility they shall not have any help dealing with it. This just in: Having ADHD is your responsibility, therefore, no Aderall for anyone.
Them being incels is also not the fault of the medical system, but it’s still the medical system’s responsibility to help incels to develop responsibility. It is the fault of society at large that incels are incels – noone is born one – so it’s even more the responsibility of society at large to help them get rid of that bullshit. Both for the incel’s and society’s sake. Or are you yourself too alienated from everything, too atomised, to recognise that? Well by your own logic that’d be your responsibility to fix, no need for me to even mention it you can do it on your own.
wow, you’re greatly misunderstanding what I said. I said it’s their responsibility to seek help, get meds, get therapy, and actually take their meds. You can’t force someone to better themselves. you will always fail unless they put in effort. And with incels, most I’ve met don’t see anything wrong with their thinking, so they won’t seek help.
I’ve had to put in a lot of work to manage my mental illness. It is my and only my responsibility to make sure I take my meds everyday and to maintain healthy habits that keep my mind functioning properly. Nobody can physically do that for me. Education on better choices? sure. but actually do the work to not be a shithead, that’s on me. It’s like getting sober. It’s a lot of work, and you have to put in effort. It won’t happen for you, no matter how many treatment centers you go to.
No I understood you just fine. If that’s how you wanted to be understood from the start you should have started out with saying what you did say now and not condense it down to
it’s on them to fix themselves. not society.
We’ve all heard the “personal responsibility” spiel so often usually it means “fuck you got mine”. And it’s not like you’re saying anything new on the accepting therapy side – that goes without saying when we’re talking that there should be therapy. Then, there’s indeed ways to coax people into accepting help, I’ve been talking about that with others elsewhere in the thread, meanwhile you’re standing there bogging it down to “it’s on them”. No. Not good enough. That’s an excuse, an excuse to later on throw up your hands and say “well they couldn’t be helped”, you know, the exact opposite of taking responsibility. “We’ve tried nothing and are all out of ideas”.
This is a really gross and condescending take. Outrage over incels isn’t performative, and if you think so you’re either stupid or a psychopath. Just because you don’t personally face threats of bodily harm doesn’t mean it isn’t real.
Whats gross and condescending is looking at people who need mental help then saying “no they dont” simply because you don’t like them. You’re a moron who wants to feel better than another group of people and can’t see past your own dislike to actually solve a damn problem. If you don’t want it to be solved just say so. Just say “id rather do nothing an keep watching schools get shot up so I can look down on a group”. Your beliefs sound a lot more like a psychopath than beliefs that try to make it so incels dont exist anymore. So I repeat, you’re a moron.
Also if you’re outrage demands no solutions but to ignore the problem, then it’s exactly performative, because you don’t want to change anything, you just want to yell. Tell me whats more performative then outrage with no change?
This was a well composed response but it doesn’t change the fact that nobody cares about incel mental health. And they shouldn’t because incels don’t really matter. Forget them. They are so far down the list of groups that need support it’s laughable. They are a joke and should be regarded as such. Your recognition of incels empowers them which warrants suspicion.
Also, your faith in mental health professionals is concerning. Are you, by chance, Canadian?
They are so far down the list of groups that need support it’s laughable.
Are you somehow thinking that “Giving incels help” means “enable them to continue being assclowns”? Because that’s the only way I can make sense of what you’re writing.
Giving potential offenders help in the form of enabling them to form relationships which aren’t abusive is helping not just incels, but also the people they would victimise. This isn’t a zero-sum game helping them to get their shit together is a win-win scenario.
Thank you. It’s not like they’re getting “special incel” mental health, its literally just normal mental health treatment that we have to find a way to get to them. Everyone here seems to think therapists are going to star talking like podcast bros, no, we just need more mental health everywhere, and that somehow pisses them off. Inhumane fucks.
Unfamiliar with him personally, and the phrase ‘podcast bro’ left a lot of vagueness so that’s on me, but in my mind when I said podcast bros I was meaning the ones who try to outright justify the maladaptive responses rather than address the root traumas, names like Tate and other unmentionables, and I hope hes a far cry from that kind of podcast since it seems hes a real psychiatrist.
If someone wants to adopt the overall podcast style in a professional and healthy way, to me that becomes more an example of ‘meeting people where they’re at’. Which is necessary and best practice in lots of Mental Health and Social Work situations. Everyone struggling with MH deserves to be met where they are at IMO, if it was easy for everyone to just walk into a therapists office, my guess is many more would do it, and we wouldn’t see rising MH issues across almost all strata of society.
Dr. K is actually much more on the therapist than podcaster side, incels have come up but that’s because the incel topic is gamer-adjacent, not because he’d be targeting that audience, as is I doubt this kind of thing can reach the actually misogynist ones (the interviewee was involuntarily celibate but not whatever-pilled). To specifically address those going a bit undercover and looking like a Guru would probably be necessary. Something like a mixture of Dr. K’s qualifications, Vaush’s erm combativeness and Hampton’s biceps and attitude. Would be a thin line between keeping things sane and hitting notes the audience expects, maybe along the lines of “real men don’t hit women, we tickle” – I’m of a generation and place where we actually, and truly, would gang-tickle girls in our teens. Never did them any harm and I in fact got dates out of it as apparently it’s giving them a sense of security, “those guys can throw down but don’t mean me any harm”. In that context, I learned the difference between being scary (like a monster) and being intimidating (like a rollercoaster): Girls by and large like the latter but rightfully loathe the former. That kind of lesson, I think, is exactly what people who go down the incel pipeline lack.
Your recognition of incels empowers them which warrants suspicion.
Sure bud. Recognizing problems is bad, and ignoring them is how we fix them. Huge brain take. If you really need find a group to feel superior to, you do you, but I suggest therapy and a better world view as a healthy alternative. You seem more eager to let the problem perpetuate, which warrants ACTUAL suspicion.
it’s on them to fix themselves. not society. I’m alone, divorced, but I still don’t blame women or society. that’s the incel’s problem: lack of personal accountability, entitlement to a woman, society blaming.
it takes two to make a relationship, and I’m tired of my fellow man being offended at having to work at having a relationship
You sound like the barely middle class referring to the homeless. “It’s on them to fix themselves, not society. I smoked pot and drank in college, but I didn’t fall into addiction and lose my job and my home. That’s the homless’ problem: lack of personal accountability and willpower to get clean and sober and maintain a job.”
Making substance abuse a stigma instead of recognizing it as a physical and mental health condition hasn’t helped the homeless population pull themselves up by their bootstraps. Recognizing incelism as needing mental health treatment is no different. If it’s obviously a problem, it affects society, maybe we should look at it instead of turning out noses up and pretend not to see the problems.
Nobody is stopping them from seeing a psychologist except the psychologists own extortionist pricing. Mental illness is not their fault, but it’s the individual’s responsibility.
Incels aren’t a problem for regular people. They only really exist in social media which is, obviously, not real life and cannot hurt you. Unless, you want them to? Did a troll hurt your feelings? Did he call you a cunt on Tinder? Did they call you “bud” in a sassy reply? You gave them power by being so fragile and now you want to give them more recognition. 80% of incels will grow out of it. This article, and you, are validating Jordan Peterson. Congratulations, you’re an incel ally.
Sigh. Just say you don’t know shit about mental health and move on with your performative outrage for any time you hear the word incel. I don’t have time to teach an idiot about trauma informed perspectives and it’s clear you’re not looking to learn anything, so I’m going to ask you to shut up and listen to the mental health professionals, like the one’s in the article who did the study. Because your little rage fit over incels is NOT more informed than studies conducted by professionals, and in fact is much more regressive so congrats for a perspective that make the problem you pretend to care about worse. Must feel nice to teach those incels a lesson though I’m sure you showed them.
Performative outrage is Lemmy’s kink
For real, like damn, if you want there to be less incels, well we gotta fix it, and unless their personal solution is to just round em up and throw em in camps, then maybe we have to listen to the people who spent time studying this. Shocking. I swear they just wanna feel mad and superior.
it’s on them to fix themselves. not society. I’m alone, divorced, but I still don’t blame women or society. that’s the incel’s problem: lack of personal accountability, entitlement to a woman, society blaming.
it takes two to make a relationship, and I’m tired of my fellow man being offended at having to work at having a relationship
So in one, direct, uninterrupted, comment chain we went from
to
Geez lemmy.
Mental illness isn’t your fault, but it’s your responsibility.
Ah I see and because it’s their responsibility they shall not have any help dealing with it. This just in: Having ADHD is your responsibility, therefore, no Aderall for anyone.
Them being incels is also not the fault of the medical system, but it’s still the medical system’s responsibility to help incels to develop responsibility. It is the fault of society at large that incels are incels – noone is born one – so it’s even more the responsibility of society at large to help them get rid of that bullshit. Both for the incel’s and society’s sake. Or are you yourself too alienated from everything, too atomised, to recognise that? Well by your own logic that’d be your responsibility to fix, no need for me to even mention it you can do it on your own.
wow, you’re greatly misunderstanding what I said. I said it’s their responsibility to seek help, get meds, get therapy, and actually take their meds. You can’t force someone to better themselves. you will always fail unless they put in effort. And with incels, most I’ve met don’t see anything wrong with their thinking, so they won’t seek help.
I’ve had to put in a lot of work to manage my mental illness. It is my and only my responsibility to make sure I take my meds everyday and to maintain healthy habits that keep my mind functioning properly. Nobody can physically do that for me. Education on better choices? sure. but actually do the work to not be a shithead, that’s on me. It’s like getting sober. It’s a lot of work, and you have to put in effort. It won’t happen for you, no matter how many treatment centers you go to.
No I understood you just fine. If that’s how you wanted to be understood from the start you should have started out with saying what you did say now and not condense it down to
We’ve all heard the “personal responsibility” spiel so often usually it means “fuck you got mine”. And it’s not like you’re saying anything new on the accepting therapy side – that goes without saying when we’re talking that there should be therapy. Then, there’s indeed ways to coax people into accepting help, I’ve been talking about that with others elsewhere in the thread, meanwhile you’re standing there bogging it down to “it’s on them”. No. Not good enough. That’s an excuse, an excuse to later on throw up your hands and say “well they couldn’t be helped”, you know, the exact opposite of taking responsibility. “We’ve tried nothing and are all out of ideas”.
How’s that working out for society?
you can’t force change in another’s mind. They have to be willing.
And help should be available for those who are, since that would benefit society.
of course, what I mean is it’s up to them to seek it. Make it available, but it will forever be their responsibility to come to the couch.
https://www.nationalreview.com/magazine/2021/07/12/political-discrimination-as-civil-rights-struggle/
it’s not their fault, it’s a civil rights struggle.
deleted by creator
Many tankies on Lemmy, throwing people in camps would probably get upvoted
many machines on IX.
What’s that got to do with the price of rice? You really think the only people who disdain incels are the tankies?
Got news for ya bud, that’s fucked.
incels keep shooting up schools, reason enough for me to dislike them.
So don’t you want to take steps to stop that or do you want to ignore it and just hope schools stop getting shot up?
I didn’t say that, I said I dislike them. Just as I dislike idiots like you who jump to the dumbest conclusions automatically.
This is a really gross and condescending take. Outrage over incels isn’t performative, and if you think so you’re either stupid or a psychopath. Just because you don’t personally face threats of bodily harm doesn’t mean it isn’t real.
Go outside.
Whats gross and condescending is looking at people who need mental help then saying “no they dont” simply because you don’t like them. You’re a moron who wants to feel better than another group of people and can’t see past your own dislike to actually solve a damn problem. If you don’t want it to be solved just say so. Just say “id rather do nothing an keep watching schools get shot up so I can look down on a group”. Your beliefs sound a lot more like a psychopath than beliefs that try to make it so incels dont exist anymore. So I repeat, you’re a moron.
Also if you’re outrage demands no solutions but to ignore the problem, then it’s exactly performative, because you don’t want to change anything, you just want to yell. Tell me whats more performative then outrage with no change?
That was completely incoherent and makes a hell of a lot of assumptions. I didn’t say half of what you’re crediting me with.
You’re unproductive. And not even addressing what my actual comment was about.
This was a well composed response but it doesn’t change the fact that nobody cares about incel mental health. And they shouldn’t because incels don’t really matter. Forget them. They are so far down the list of groups that need support it’s laughable. They are a joke and should be regarded as such. Your recognition of incels empowers them which warrants suspicion.
Also, your faith in mental health professionals is concerning. Are you, by chance, Canadian?
Are you somehow thinking that “Giving incels help” means “enable them to continue being assclowns”? Because that’s the only way I can make sense of what you’re writing.
Giving potential offenders help in the form of enabling them to form relationships which aren’t abusive is helping not just incels, but also the people they would victimise. This isn’t a zero-sum game helping them to get their shit together is a win-win scenario.
Thank you. It’s not like they’re getting “special incel” mental health, its literally just normal mental health treatment that we have to find a way to get to them. Everyone here seems to think therapists are going to star talking like podcast bros, no, we just need more mental health everywhere, and that somehow pisses them off. Inhumane fucks.
Vaguely gestures at Dr. K
Unfamiliar with him personally, and the phrase ‘podcast bro’ left a lot of vagueness so that’s on me, but in my mind when I said podcast bros I was meaning the ones who try to outright justify the maladaptive responses rather than address the root traumas, names like Tate and other unmentionables, and I hope hes a far cry from that kind of podcast since it seems hes a real psychiatrist.
If someone wants to adopt the overall podcast style in a professional and healthy way, to me that becomes more an example of ‘meeting people where they’re at’. Which is necessary and best practice in lots of Mental Health and Social Work situations. Everyone struggling with MH deserves to be met where they are at IMO, if it was easy for everyone to just walk into a therapists office, my guess is many more would do it, and we wouldn’t see rising MH issues across almost all strata of society.
Dr. K is actually much more on the therapist than podcaster side, incels have come up but that’s because the incel topic is gamer-adjacent, not because he’d be targeting that audience, as is I doubt this kind of thing can reach the actually misogynist ones (the interviewee was involuntarily celibate but not whatever-pilled). To specifically address those going a bit undercover and looking like a Guru would probably be necessary. Something like a mixture of Dr. K’s qualifications, Vaush’s erm combativeness and Hampton’s biceps and attitude. Would be a thin line between keeping things sane and hitting notes the audience expects, maybe along the lines of “real men don’t hit women, we tickle” – I’m of a generation and place where we actually, and truly, would gang-tickle girls in our teens. Never did them any harm and I in fact got dates out of it as apparently it’s giving them a sense of security, “those guys can throw down but don’t mean me any harm”. In that context, I learned the difference between being scary (like a monster) and being intimidating (like a rollercoaster): Girls by and large like the latter but rightfully loathe the former. That kind of lesson, I think, is exactly what people who go down the incel pipeline lack.
Sure bud. Recognizing problems is bad, and ignoring them is how we fix them. Huge brain take. If you really need find a group to feel superior to, you do you, but I suggest therapy and a better world view as a healthy alternative. You seem more eager to let the problem perpetuate, which warrants ACTUAL suspicion.
deleted by creator
it’s on them to fix themselves. not society. I’m alone, divorced, but I still don’t blame women or society. that’s the incel’s problem: lack of personal accountability, entitlement to a woman, society blaming.
it takes two to make a relationship, and I’m tired of my fellow man being offended at having to work at having a relationship
You sound like the barely middle class referring to the homeless. “It’s on them to fix themselves, not society. I smoked pot and drank in college, but I didn’t fall into addiction and lose my job and my home. That’s the homless’ problem: lack of personal accountability and willpower to get clean and sober and maintain a job.”
Making substance abuse a stigma instead of recognizing it as a physical and mental health condition hasn’t helped the homeless population pull themselves up by their bootstraps. Recognizing incelism as needing mental health treatment is no different. If it’s obviously a problem, it affects society, maybe we should look at it instead of turning out noses up and pretend not to see the problems.
Mental illness isn’t your fault, but it is your responsibility.
I’ve got this everybody.
Ahem.
Clap
There you go. Your one, single congratulations.
Can you get out of the way now? Give psychologists the space to do their god damn job?
Nobody is stopping them from seeing a psychologist except the psychologists own extortionist pricing. Mental illness is not their fault, but it’s the individual’s responsibility.
If they can’t afford it, then the state should help them.
Unless you prefer to let people fester and rot.
I never said I was against that
Incels aren’t a problem for regular people. They only really exist in social media which is, obviously, not real life and cannot hurt you. Unless, you want them to? Did a troll hurt your feelings? Did he call you a cunt on Tinder? Did they call you “bud” in a sassy reply? You gave them power by being so fragile and now you want to give them more recognition. 80% of incels will grow out of it. This article, and you, are validating Jordan Peterson. Congratulations, you’re an incel ally.
tell that to the fucking incels that keep shooting up schools.