- cross-posted to:
- japan@lemmy.ml
- cross-posted to:
- japan@lemmy.ml
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Great read, thanks for sharing.
Gonna share this with my anime incel friends, if I can find a good moment to sneak it past their discord’s no-politics rule.Make it sound like “will this affect the release schedule?”
I think it really hit the nail on the head with comparisons between idols and influencers. I’ve had the same observations for a while now that late-stage capitalism monetizes parasocial relationships because it’s one of the last things it can commodify.
Now that the manufacturing has dried up, nobody can afford to buy anything, and luxuries become unattainable, the only things left to sell and profit from becomes the top of Maslow’s Hierarchy of Needs. Love and belonging are where we’re at in that process. You can already see capitalism trying to monetize self-esteem and self-actualization.
That and just gambling on literally everything
Always thought that stan culture is poisonous and institutions use the celebs as a shield works because of stan culture which is part of how they whitewash the exploitatoon practices. Another way they monetize parasocial relations
“Is America next?”
One can hope
japan, south korea, israel and the uk. the four horseman of countries that are somehow declining even faster than the us
The first signs of an empire’s decline are often felt in its periphery and client states. Japan and occupied Korea function as modern colonies. Both now exhibit the severe strains of hypercapitalism, including brutal work cultures, corporations with extraordinary power, weak labor movements, and a legacy of anti-communist ideology imposed to maintain a compliant capitalist class. Japan’s own economic trajectory was deliberately undermined in the 1980s when its technological and manufacturing prowess threatened to surpass the United States.
Good takes, I think some of it is individualist vs collective social culture, but most of it I agree with.
The part I’m not convinced of is the black jobs one. I think in collective cultures people put up with the extremes of abuse in black jobs more when there are social expectations of it and it is more normalised to put up with things for the sake of others rather than the self. Black jobs prey on that behaviour. A common method being that if you don’t put up with the abuse you’re letting down your other coworkers, who will in some cases also turn on you for not putting up with it. Quitting a job is also seen in some of these cultures as letting down coworkers. Nobody in the west thinks that, nobody in individualist cultures thinks you’re letting down coworkers by quitting a shit fucking job.
I will admit however that the phenomenon of hikkikomori seems like something that is rising in the west. So maybe there is something to it. Maybe hikkikomori will increase and increase and increase here too. Or maybe it’s already commonplace and we just don’t analyse or talk about it the same way. I have never looked at a chart comparing western neets numbers with hikkikomori. I’m not even sure if neets count as hikkikomori without more extreme behaviour.
I’m sorry that I keep bickering with you, but I think that “collectivist culture” is a little bit of an unhelpful category that mostly exists from the perspective of commentators in highly atomized (“individualist”) cultures despite it encompassing an extremely wide range of varied traits that make most generalizations futile.
I think there are also “black jobs” in the west, esp. looking at the several posts on this site describing abusive, underpaid, overworking jobs, but we don’t have a dedicated term for it. Why would we? That would be attacking Job Creators! If anything, I think Japan having a clear term for it indicates among the people a higher level of consciousness about how abusive the system itself is, like how countries that report higher crime rates sometimes just have better documentation rather than more crime (or more but not that much more).
And I think there are many factors beyond a sense of loyalty to your coworkers that apply both in Japan and in the west that could leave someone scared to quit their shitty job, though it’s also worth noting that loyalty also gets weaponized even in America, it just might not be as pronounced. I myself have heard multiple stories about people being argued out of quitting on the basis that the store (or whatever) is already understaffed and it would really fuck over the other employees for you to leave.
But obviously in a country like America it’s true that things are usually not quite as ridiculous in terms of hours worked, for example, so I concede that it is not simply the same between here and there.
We’ve bickered?
I think that “collectivist culture” is a little bit of an unhelpful category that mostly exists from the perspective of commentators in highly atomized (“individualist”) cultures despite it encompassing an extremely wide range of varied traits that make most generalizations futile.
Ok. But in the UK Thatcher said there is no society and they’ve actively worked towards the goal of not having one through ultra individualism. Whereas I am quite certain that the view of fitting into society and not being an individual but moderating yourself for the sake of everyone is different over in Japan. That’s what I’m getting at.
I think there are also “black jobs” in the west, esp. looking at the several posts on this site describing abusive, underpaid, overworking jobs, but we don’t have a dedicated term for it. Why would we?
These are not like the black jobs in Japan. The black jobs in Japan have very real emotional, and verbal abuse involved in them. They are at the very extremes of what we call workplace bullying in the UK.
We’ve bickered?
No, I’ve bickered and you’ve had better things to do, which is fine.
Ok. But in the UK Thatcher said there is no society and they’ve actively worked towards the goal of not having one through ultra individualism.
Fun fact: That’s not quite her assertion, because she also said that families are real as well as individuals and should be part of these organizing principles. I guess Thatcher is a familial collectivist! (Really it was her pandering to traditionalists as a compromise to her atomizing agenda, of course)
Whereas I am quite certain that the view of fitting into society
Yes, but I think that you will find that a) what “fitting into society” means can be dramatically different even within the same conceptual domain from place to place, and b) which domains “fitting into society” is used as a justification for varies from place to place and is indeed used in countries like America in several contexts (ones where it is convenient to capitalism). a) is the main reason for my criticism, because it makes “collectivism” a difficult term to make useful generalizations about.
You can see this by comparing Japan against other “collectivist” societies, like East Germany, where there is quite a lot of difference in their understandings of what fitting into society means.
Also, capitalist westerners talk a big game about nonconformity but it just isn’t true most of the time, not unless you’re rich, and then it proves that you’re better than everyone else. The biggest element of genuine individualism is that you are meant to regard other workers with apathy or contempt, but you’re still supposed to be a cog in the machine if you can’t swing being a Captain of Industry. And socially, well, I think most of the userbase knows better than I do that nonconformity is met with actual violence in some places (though on a much smaller scale this has affected even me, too).
and not being an individual
No, this just isn’t true. There are points of social discipline that they may have that we don’t, but that’s not the same as not being an individual. This is like what liberals say about communist states (though I am of course not insinuating that you have an agenda or contempt in saying this like liberals do).
but moderating yourself for the sake of everyone is different over in Japan. That’s what I’m getting at.
Yes, though this is just a slightly more specific phrasing of “fitting in.”
These are not like the black jobs in Japan. The black jobs in Japan have very real emotional, and verbal abuse involved in them. They are at the very extremes of what we call workplace bullying in the UK.
When I said “abusive” before I was including verbal abuse, and even the example around quitting that I gave is a form of emotional abuse, but more importantly it is absolutely true that there are many shitty jobs here in the states where the boss/manager will disparage you, make insinuations, guilt trip you and so on. It’s well-known that there are people who will basically use your desperation to make you a punching bag.
As an aside, I think it might be worth giving further consideration to how, in the Japanese context, it is more of a professional expectation to stay at one company for your career in many office jobs, which can make changing jobs much harder because you’re typically not who the hiring staff are looking for. We can call this “collectivism” if you want, but this particular aspect is not generally a constraint stemming from the employee’s values.
Pretty enlightening insight. I may not agree 100% with every point but I’ve had a gnawing thought for some time that the claimed black company life that Japanese salarymen, and even Chinese netizens, complain about is actually not even that bad compared to America.
Like, salaryman life videos are kind of my guilty slop pleasures and these guys are like woe is me. I work 12 hours a day, my rent is half my salary, I only save 25% of it every month, my boss sucks. Life is so grey.
And I’m just like, y’all are living better lives than most Americans and financially solvent, and the unhealthy food they complain about is 10x better than American synthetic slop, and they don’t even work more than salaried US professionals, and they get to live in a high trust low crime high infrastructure society, AND they get healthcare, it just amazes me that this is enough to drive so many salarymen into utter mental ruin when this is considered a very good life by American standards.
To be clear, I’m not saying one has it worse or that both people have it the same, I’m just trying to say that I don’t think it’s a categorical difference and also that I really don’t like the way people talk about so-called “collectivist cultures,” even ones that I would heavily criticize and say have many backwards values like you see in capitalist states.
Or maybe it’s already commonplace and we just don’t analyse or talk about it the same way.
I strongly suspect it’s that. Not because I have any real statistical information to back it up, but as loathe as I am to admit it, I think at this point I fit the definition for hikkikomori. And on the few occasions I’ve tried to find others like myself, doing so wasn’t exactly hard. I don’t know how different I am in that I actually used to have something of a normal, if very reserved social life. I fell into this current, but long-lasting deep isolation later on, post-youth, so maybe I’m just a hermit.
Most of what I’ve read (which isn’t all that much) is that in the US and other western countries, people who fit the description usually just get categorized in with others with extreme depression and anxiety disorders, since that’s virtually always part of the hikkikimori package. But that the US equivalent to hikkikimori lifestyle isn’t really counted or studied as a phenomenon unto itself. There is some study of NEETs, but that usually doesn’t have as much to do specifically with extreme social isolation as with the economic factors for not working or being in school. I’ve been diagnosed with AvPD, Avoidant Personality Disorder, and at least as of a few years back, I wasn’t the only hexbear to say so. My suspicion is that this disorder strongly correlates with a very similar kind of lifestyle to the hikkikimori in Japan.
Yah I’ve been a NEET now for over a decade due to disability and mental illness. It’s not classified as “hikkikomori” I think because a lot of NEETs still have some social activities to participate in.
Otherwise, we recognize it as agoraphobia when someone doesn’t leave their dwelling. Not sure how Japan classifies it or what their treatments are for it. A lot of mental illnesses and phobias are cultural or have cultural aspects to them that affect treatment. John Nash’s schizophrenia manifested as aliens sending him secret codes through radio signals and newspapers, for example. In the 1500s it would have been something else entirely.
Also don’t know how common hikkikomori is just because like at least 1/3 of parents in US/Canada want to throw their kids out at 18 and tell them to be homeless if they can’t. I have a feeling younger generations of parents aren’t like that as much but they also have the least money to support jobless children so they’re probably going to be pushing them to at least work part-time or do something to make any sort of money to help out.
